Can we bring Thief back into the fold?

[wereotter]

my apologies to the community. What I meant was to have rogue branch out to Thief to become a job of it's own to max level and If I may, I don't think morals should control a job class function and being a "thief" does not mean you are morally evil.

This will not happen.

The developers very rarely come out and outright say "no, never" to anything they're asked for. When asked to have more branching jobs in the scholar/summoner vein, they emphatically said absolutely not. Balancing the two jobs has caused them no end of headaches. They've done everything they can to separate the two up to the point now that if you look at the actions of the jobs, the only skill they share in common now is resurrection. (Summoner's physick is a different skill from scholar's)

So I wouldn't expect them to do this at any point in the future.

[kaynide]

It’s an idea people have discussed and ultimately I do think many would appreciate having rogue (or thief) be its own unique job...but some problems:

1) The devs are on record saying rogue is thief, just they can’t use the word thief because of nuance. Rogue has a variety of imagery associated whereas thief is pretty specific and very negative in Japanese. In essence it’s more like... assassin vs murderer... similar meaning but different nuance.

2) they have stated clearly that for the foreseeable future, they will not be adding alternate jobs like they did summoner and scholar. They very much hate that whole thing although it seemed an interesting idea at the time.

[Shougun]

I feel calling people a liar is pretty insulting but not sure if that's 'enough' to get a warning; however, your other swear word shouldn't be used and it's saving grace is probably that you didn't use it AT someone. Still, besides editing your post to adjust I'm not sure if the discussion is going to be trimmed now.

You should definitely edit some of your wording down if you're interested in preserving the conversation- I'm not going to respond again if things get worse / similar because I don't think it was very conducive to the conversation and if not butting against the rules directly is like 1/100 an ilm from doing so..

Anyway, I don't think either were liars- and maybe it wasn't as prominently / main job Thief as you like but it definitely had Thief core concepts. Seraphor was quoting the devs, largely (though I'm sure they also saw the parallels in design so I wouldn't say exclusively), and the devs clearly intended to make Rogue look like Thief in everything but name (and maybe some mechanics you love but that happened to other jobs too, sometimes things don't translates well or well honestly.. the team just went a different direction lol).

You're also arguing the moral angle with someone that thinks it's silly, so I'm not sure if you knew that or not but I think morally being a Thief is better than being an assassin or a vigilante (both types of jobs we have in this game, given the context that all three are not out for evil at least and all three are 'capable' of killing I would then list Thief as more moral since they focus on acquiring assets over focusing on death and destruction to complete their goals - If I had an enemy I'd much rather have a hero thief coming after me than a hero assassin lol). I also question whether Yoshida actually said that or not because no one has been able to provide a source on what they're saying he said. He did say a city wouldn't want to advertise thieving and that makes sense, certainly, and given the nature of needing classes way back when it makes sense that they might think ehhhhyyy Thief (Rogue) -> Ninja might be cool? Anyway, morally I think is a bad argument especially given context of our other jobs, other FF games, and that you could easily paint the job as a robinhood sort of vibe (but better even)- naturally it would have to be a job and not a class though (cause again a city who is trying to turn over a new leaf isn't going to advertise thieving to the regular populace). So I think, at least so far, the moral argument is from the players and not Yoshida (until someone can provide a source), and the only source-able reason why they did what they did actually has some traction (wanted to honor the tradition of Thief - > Ninja, saw some vibes they could combine like Bard and Ranger, and felt while they follow their class system means putting it into a city so therefore they couldn't call it a Thief and have it fit so smoothly). Of course we don't care about the class system at all now lol.

I like anti-heros quite a bit and I think gray actions are way more fun than "I'm lawful good, everything I do is blessed by god", and honestly pretty happy with FFXIV in that regard, though I do hope for some more dark jobs (like Dark Knight). Anyway, I don't think we were ever clearly a villain, even if you might point out some skeptical things we did or were near/part of. At least so long as we are both understanding villain as evil. Using some dark magic doesn't mean you're evil, could be you're chaotic good / chaotic neutral- just to be clear if someone starts going "but but that's why you can't do X" lol.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

Much like the original Final Fantasy, Ninja is just an upgraded Thief/Rogue in XIV. Granted, I wouldn't mind a skill that lets you steal items from enemies easier for material farming. One without a big cool down.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

Much like the original Final Fantasy, Ninja is just an upgraded Thief/Rogue in XIV. Granted, I wouldn't mind a skill that lets you steal items from enemies easier for material farming. One without a big cool down.

never once have i used ninja I don't even use yuffie in ff7 , theifs i spam like crazy steal/luck chance/drops... Still lets face it ffxiv really screwed over every final fantasy job.. our signatures either have long cds are dont even exist for us .. making them pointless.. "pets" arent rlly what they should be.. honestly id rather play 1.0 by the videos of it atleast it looks like the jobs are really what they are suppose to be... instead knock off brands.

[Seraphor]

Much like the original Final Fantasy, Ninja is just an upgraded Thief/Rogue in XIV. Granted, I wouldn't mind a skill that lets you steal items from enemies easier for material farming. One without a big cool down.

There was a suggestion a little while ago I liked, that base classes should have their own unique skills, that are lost when upgrading to the job. This would be something to give purpose of base classes as their own content, rather than it being a direct upgrade to the job.
It obviously wouldn't be enough for you to take a base class into current content over the job, but it could serve to make the early leveling process more interesting.

This would be a decent option for Rogue.
In the early game, where it's a little more relevant, you could use Steal to directly gain an item from an enemy without actually killing it. And it would serve as a farming tool for higher levels.

Other options could be giving Conjurer it's Knockback skill.
Thaumaturge could have Drain for better self sufficiency.
Marauder could have Berserk be an actual Berserk where you lose control for the duration but have higher speed and damage.
Archer could serve as a hunter/ranger and have a skill similar to Mug, so there's another option besides Rogue for farming items. Maybe it tags an enemy, and then when you kill it, it guarantees an item drop.
Pugilist and/or Gladiator could have a Revive skill.
Lancer... I'd probably do the reverse and just remove Piercing Talon from Dragoon while keeping it on Lancer. Maybe it would be an enmity generator or inflict Heavy to give it added utility.
Arcanist... probably do the same and remove Resurrection from Summoner tbh.

[Haruka_R]

I don't really have an interest to be a Thief though. And the whole Rouge=Thief=Evil shit is stupid. Better to be a Ninja.

[ADVSS]

Rogue is just a naming convention for thief. I don't know why people are pushing against the title. This is why we don't have a Thug class, its just a derogatory term at this point. Even table top games that FF took inspiration from, like dungeons and dragons and pathfinder use Rogue now instead of the term Thief, which it was originally called, because of the connotations that the class titled "criminal" was not a good name to give yourself if you're supposed to be a hero. Very few enemies in this game are humanoids, and so stealing from an opo opo wouldnt make a whole lot of sense, so instead they give the class/job mug which lets you get a material drop from killing them. What even would you steal from bosses? a NQ craftable item at the same ilevel? Weapons aren't very unique in this game, in that you dont have them have poison damage, or elemental damage, or additional effects, so its super pointless to have an ability that will go to waste when you realize all you'd be stealing is garbo you probably have better(green or blue quality at least) compared to. Or maybe you want a chance at a dungeon drop that you'll see in one of the chests during the dungeon you're doing? I mean sure, go for it, its just not going to be a meaningful ability, and at the end of the day making a new class for that ability that doesnt matter, and probably has the same success rate as BLUs level 5 death spell, will just be extremely disappointing. Go get your rogue relic armor from the level...20 class quest? idr and your Zidane outfit for being subbed, and request a Locke outfit, and play your Thief fantasy with glamours. Thief really didnt have much to offer besides stealing rare weapons from specific bosses. In order for them to make a class based around that one time thing, they will have to create loot tables for at least all the dungeon bosses. And what you get will not be some Atma Weapon, or Ultima Blade...it will be ilevel of the dungeon at best, and will just maybe have better secondary stats from what weapon normally drops in that instance. They will never give you a weapon that is a - better than what the savage raiders have access to eventually as it will be highest i level, and b something rediculously higher than the level of the dungeon it came from, as tomestone gear exists as the middle ground upgrade for people unless they do savage raids.

Your comment isnt worth adding to a new post so ill reply to it here:

Rogue plays completely different to what a thief is about... its not about crappy glamors, its about the theme of being bad but also good, teasing people taking their stuff and pickpocketing...

For rogue to be anywhere near Thief first it needs poisoning on daggers buff... (to infect a dot) at the very least,



Second add ABILITY TO ACTRUALLY STEAl off along cd with no cd what so ever that actually gives us items.. instead of it loot table to people. Next: add more theif abilitys and stop with the lame ass ninja trash...

until that happens its not a theif its just wow trash rogue

and daggers like magemasher that can inflict silence sometimes..

First of all 2.0 rogue had 2 stances that were poison stances that changed a couple of their skills to do things like paralyze or give hp back. You also have dots, i believe one is called Shadow Fang- a tick in damage over time is literally this games version of poison/bleed damage.
Second of all i told you already that section about weapons, special effects and elemental damage is not a thing in this game, and never will be unless they do a major overhaul of the game. So no mage masher-like weapons , like i said. There is no reason to have your solo game Thief in this MMO.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

Rogue is just a naming convention for thief. I don't know why people are pushing against the title. This is why we don't have a Thug class, its just a derogatory term at this point. Even table top games that FF took inspiration from, like dungeons and dragons and pathfinder use Rogue now instead of the term Thief, which it was originally called, because of the connotations that the class titled "criminal" was not a good name to give yourself if you're supposed to be a hero. Very few enemies in this game are humanoids, and so stealing from an opo opo wouldnt make a whole lot of sense, so instead they give the class/job mug which lets you get a material drop from killing them. What even would you steal from bosses? a NQ craftable item at the same ilevel? Weapons aren't very unique in this game, in that you dont have them have poison damage, or elemental damage, or additional effects, so its super pointless to have an ability that will go to waste when you realize all you'd be stealing is garbo you probably have better(green or blue quality at least) compared to. Or maybe you want a chance at a dungeon drop that you'll see in one of the chests during the dungeon you're doing? I mean sure, go for it, its just not going to be a meaningful ability, and at the end of the day making a new class for that ability that doesnt matter, and probably has the same success rate as BLUs level 5 death spell, will just be extremely disappointing. Go get your rogue relic armor from the level...20 class quest? idr and your Zidane outfit for being subbed, and request a Locke outfit, and play your Thief fantasy with glamours.

Rogue plays completely different to what a thief is about... its not about crappy glamors, its about the theme of being bad but also good, teasing people taking their stuff and pickpocketing...

For rogue to be anywhere near Thief first it needs poisoning on daggers buff... (to infect a dot) at the very least, Second add ABILITY TO ACTRUALLY STEAl off along cd with no cd what so ever that actually gives us items.. instead of it loot table to people. Next: add more theif abilitys and stop with the lame ass ninja trash...

until that happens its not a theif its just wow trash rogue

and daggers like magemasher that can inflict silence sometimes..

[RicaRuin]

Rogue plays completely different to what a thief is about... its not about crappy glamors, its about the theme of being bad but also good, teasing people taking their stuff and pickpocketing...

For rogue to be anywhere near Thief first it needs poisoning on daggers buff... (to infect a dot) at the very least, Second add ABILITY TO ACTRUALLY STEAl off along cd with no cd what so ever that actually gives us items.. instead of it loot table to people. Next: add more theif abilitys and stop with the lame ass ninja trash...

until that happens its not a theif its just wow trash rogue

and daggers like magemasher that can inflict silence sometimes..

That's... not how this game works, though. You don't have abilities linked to weapons.