Can we bring Thief back into the fold?

[Reaperking386]

I think thief is one of those iconic jobs that were put down when we got Ninja and it really sucks for players who enjoyed that aspect of their game time. Why can't we branch that class and give it more substance than a it being a hurdle for Ninja mains? You can add so much uniqueness to it.

[RicaRuin]

Because they said that the WoL as the Hero and good person can't be any class that had a negative aspect to it (such as stealing when talking about Thief).

And also because there will never again be branching classes, as they are a nightmare to balance. They said so as well.

[Seraphor]

Rogue is Thief in all but name.
What else would it have exactly? Thief's job fantasy is using knives and stealing items. Rogue/Ninja already has Mug so...

[Shougun]

As Seraphor said technically Rogue is Thief, and like not 'sort of' but like per the dev team's intentions and in game lore they've said Rogue is Thief.

I can certainly see there might be some gameplay differences from Thief and Ninja if someone wanted to pry them apart, like Bard and Ranger (although I see a far easier and more obvious difference with that example), but that would be on a whole new level of deconstruction and reconstruction lol. Unlike say White Mage leaving their elementals behind as they go into holy magic, which creates a natural hole for another job to fill (not saying it must be filled but without retcons it certainly made a natural space).

With Thief and Ninja they're already bound at the hip so it would take a lot more work to separate out the pieces you need, and quite dangerous to the players who already enjoy that job - so you're definitely asking for a challenge :P.

I never really got into the Thief, or even Ninja to be honest, imagery / vibe so I don't really have any ideas, without putting concerted effort into it, on what would make all that effort worth it... buuuut.. maybe you can. Didn't want to say no, but just say you've got a big mountain to climb and so you'll need equally big or greater reasons why someone should want to climb that lol.

Because they said that the WoL as the Hero and good person can't be any class that had a negative aspect to it (such as stealing when talking about Thief).

And also because there will never again be branching classes, as they are a nightmare to balance. They said so as well.

I still would like to see a source that Yoshida said we can't have Thief due to the WoL's morals or whatever, it seems like a silly statement on multiple levels and one I have a hard time believing (I've seen this reference to his words worded multiple ways already which adds to the doubt lol). For starters we've had major heroes of the FF universe be thieves, then we also have clear hero thieves in media outside of FF (Robinhood...?), and then finally we've many jobs that you could argue are far more gray than being a thief. "can't be a thief but assassins and taking the law into your own hands like batman, that's fine". Whhaattt? For real? lol.

I however do believe what was meant to be passed along, or could have been said, was that they felt making a thieves guild unreasonable due to trying to make it fit with the lore of the npcs of that area (Limsa is trying to be a good girl, adding in a thieves guild is counter to their attempt to tamper down on their negative acts, although they still steal from Garleans) and that they HAD to make a class back then because that's how jobs worked. Yeah, okay - I might see how they thought rogue -> Ninja was cooler than Rogue -> Thief (which is like the same thing lol). Also I can point out how Yoshida likes to do things a little bit different than the standard on occasion, like his Bard idea, so I would say this would be a likely candidate where it'd be a bit where they were trying to get value and small difference (value in that you get both Ninja and Thief in one job, like Ranger and Bard). Because Yoshida has said, and I can source, that Rogue IS Thief, like they made the spells, imagery, and even a lore tidbit that says "rogue is thief".

What I'm saying is if FFXIV was adding Thief for the first time now days and we now skip classes all together I don't think there would be any problem adding Thief, but since we had to follow the class system they wanted to make it fit- and also what they did was do the classic FF Tactics system where Thief goes into Ninja.

Anyway.. just seems like a silly statement to say WoL's morals and even if for whatever reason it was one of Yoshida's quirky moments I feel after our Dark Knight and many dark story moments with some gray-like moral moments that his statement would gain far more nuance than what people are saying right now.

So.. still waiting on that source because it sounds like it could be taken out of context/morphed after too many passes through the monkey chain or not exist at all. And if it does then while Yoshida is never going to respond at least I can then question the logic of the statement directly.

[Seraphor]

Would changing the name of Rogue to Thief really serve any purpose though?

[Shougun]

Would changing the name of Rogue to Thief really serve any purpose though?

Personally I don't think so lol. Doesn't help I don't have any personal feelings on Thief though, so maybe to someone it would- but to me it sounds like you've not added much gameplay but had to muck around in the lore anyways. Like if Rogue -> Thief, which we've lore already says is Thief so a bit of a weird transition if you think of that but.. still could potentially be done (rogue still class, Thief the job), yet since Rogue already has many key parts of being a Thief it seems like the job is already represented mostly. So I'm not sure what you're gaining by the extra work, then again mentioning it's not my passion job so that certainly colors how I'm thinking of it (and would hope if someone has passion for it that they might be able to produce reasons why it's worth it, if not then.. well that'd be a problem lol).

I don't want to say it's impossible it couldn't do something interesting, since I feel if I 'had' to sit on it and think for a while I might be able to string together something but. . . . Would like to see what a Thief fan wants more than someone trying to make it work because they're extremely determined to make it work for the sake of it (ideally nothing is done simply for the sake of it).

I'm clearly not one to forbid mucking around in the lore (though I actively avoid retcons, in this case mucking just means traversing and adding new stories / perspectives / tools that evolve (over retcon) an impossibility into a possibility, like what was done for Demi-primals), but I hope any efforts to do that are worth it by producing something unique and hopefully that unique value passes through into gameplay too.

(also want to mention I did an edit to my post if you were responding to me, can read the top half :3)

[ADVSS]

Rogue is literally thief in everything but name only. Also it class changing to Ninja is a homage to the original FF. I dont know what more you could ask for in regards to the class/job itself. They gave it Mug, which has always been the fully upgraded version of "Sneak/Steal" in former games. It already has a movement speed buff, so no holding down B button to sprint in the overworld map. The only other ability thief has ever had throughout the series was being able to see secret passageways-which, i dont know if thats what you're asking for or not, but i really got nothing there, esp in a 3d game where you can change the camera angle at will...Or i guess you want more of a tactics version where you can steal the enemies heart, weapon,armor, bank account, and marital status?

[Shougun]

Rogue is literally thief in everything but name only. Also it class changing to Ninja is a homage to the original FF. I dont know what more you could ask for in regards to the class/job itself. They gave it Mug, which has always been the fully upgraded version of "Sneak/Steal" in former games. It already has a movement speed buff, so no holding down B button to sprint in the overworld map. The only other ability thief has ever had throughout the series was being able to see secret passageways-which, i dont know if thats what you're asking for or not, but i really got nothing there, esp in a 3d game where you can change the camera angle at will...Or i guess you want more of a tactics version where you can steal the enemies heart, weapon,armor, bank account, and marital status?

Hahaha. Thief's advance feature, steal the hearts and relationships of others- even other players. Steal the ring during the wedding ceremony for the ultimate heist.

Finally we get FFXIV's favour system put to good use! https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/blog/000692.html

Also on the secret passage part though I think that would be awesome... I've been thinking of role play merit system recently and trying to improve the feeling that you're that job while also giving players content that they can pump exp into without it causing huge imbalances. So like Dragoon could gain reduce fall damage that turns into no fall damage, an upgraded basic jump ability (they default jump higher), etc. Thief could gain some areas that have locks on chests or doors, and being a thief would provide benefit to that situation. Well, saying Thief but obviously I mean Rogue / Ninja lol.

[Angelov-Mercy]

I think thief is one of those iconic jobs that were put down when we got Ninja and it really sucks for players who enjoyed that aspect of their game time. Why can't we branch that class and give it more substance than a it being a hurdle for Ninja mains? You can add so much uniqueness to it.

Admit it, you just want to start a Miqo'te "Cat Burglar" meme. XD

[wereotter]

I still would like to see a source that Yoshida said we can't have Thief due to the WoL's morals or whatever, it seems like a silly statement on multiple levels and one I have a hard time believing. For starters we've had major heroes of the FF universe be thieves, then we also have clear hero thieves in media outside of FF (Robinhood...?), and then finally we've many jobs that you could argue are far more gray than being a thief. "can't be a thief but assassins and taking the law into your own hands like batman, that's fine". Whhaattt? For real? lol.

It's difficult to source as it's something he's said in passing at events like fan fest, live letters, or in more casual interviews, but here's a quote from when the rogue/ninja job was added into the game in the first place, and he's made similar comments since when people have asked for more morally grey jobs to be added into the game.

https://novacrystallis.com/2014/06/f...announcements/

"The Rogues were once thieves but through time they’ve evolved into their own respected guild. Why would a city allow a thieves guild? This is the reason they are not called thieves."

He's also made comments like "why would the warrior of light be a thief?" to imply that he doesn't want names with negative connotations attached to them, hence rogue rather than thief. Not only that, but if anything would be more "thief-y" it goes to ninja because of its rogue roots, the Ivalician raid gear, for example has a thief set which was set for ninja.