Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Krotoan]

I'm sorry but this is an awful way to teach someone they are bad, if someone keeps getting kicked from parties then they're just going to quit, especially if no one offers any explanation and silent kicks them. It might not be your responsibility or right (why are you even saying it like that lol)

Because some see it as their "Right" as a "better" player to correct people not doing it their way. Content passed or not.
I agree if nothing is EVER said some will quit. But the problem being here that people jump down peoples throats pretty quickly for minor issues.

but it seems cruel to let a bad player flail about instead of helping them and SE has shown that outside of Hall of the Novice and SSS, they’re not really interested in helping players learn how to play their jobs.

I disagree. If you play the game and do the required content as it comes you are fed mechanics one by one with survivable, teachable examples.

If they choose to ignore the advice, that's a different conversation. Also, 'jumping on a sub-par player' that's a weird way to put it, the only people who do that are just as bad as the person they're lecturing and no one likes them either. Sub-par play is NOT ok unless the person is new to the game or the content itself.

Why is "sub-par" play your problem beyond that one run? Most of the time I see complaints about it is people not even doing the egregious "one" pull or the "no dps" healer. They're just not doing it optimally and someone starts with something like "do you even know what an AOE is?". As someone who wears the mentor mark with full intentions of explaining every mechanic if necessary, I see this offered so much more than a gentle suggestion or observation.

This is simply not true, the idea that people who are trying to offer advice in this game to other players have lofty standards that go beyond what is required is false and pushing it as the truth is facetious. I have never, ever seen someone ask a bad player or a new player to perform at Extreme/Savage/Ultimate levels. Asking someone to perform a rotation, actually press their buttons and contribute to whatever piece of content they willingly signed up for is nothing more than asking for basic decency. If this person doesn't want to actually play, they should not have signed up for content, it's as simple as that.

I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't observed it multiple times in game and seen it quoted on these forums. "Basic decency".. unless that person has some sort of limitation you know nothing about. Everyone seems to have this standard of bare-minimum based on their own gameplay and ability with zero empathy for the likely thousands of others out there who simply cannot function on that level. Your bare-minimums are someone elses "hyper focus".

Sure, they can initiate a vote kick, but let me tell you what will happen. The PF leader will most likely take the party out of the content and remove the person pointing out an issue because they're rather protect their friends feelings than actually take the rightful criticism onboard, that or they'll just blow the PF up because people in this game cannot deal with problems being pointed out.

Also that goes both ways, those who do not do damage as healers and do not do big pulls when the party wants it, should make their own parties so as not to be detrimental to others.

Then do you really want to be part of that run? If you want optimal runs per minute or whatever, make your own parties. Those who use the DF should understand it's what you get and not "what you want". Clear that run, move on with your life. I wouldn't expect you to say nothing because sure I can get you might want to help, but again, try to be non-accusatory.

Sure, I got my farm done (no mount, very sad) but that's another bad experience for me to chalk up. It didn't really change my life, but every time something similar happens, it's just going to quietly build up in the back of my mind and eventually sour my attitude. You shouldn't so flippantly write off bad experiences, acting as if it didn't matter, because unfortunately it is a problem with this playerbase. If these bad experiences were few and far between, then sure I wouldn't really care and would just accept it as luck of the draw etc, however, we have an entire thread dedicated to the sheer ineptitude of this playerbase and it's probably the biggest thread on this board. I'm not stupid enough to expect that every single time I do content with people via DF and PF, that I'm going to get players of the same skill level with the same investment, however it shouldn't be filled with players who are half paying attention, don't know how to play their jobs, won't listen to advice and bring the party down.

Again, it is a game and if you're gonna let this kind of thing get to you then it's entirely within your power to make and run "optimal" parties. Otherwise you get what you get and antagonizing others is not going to help. I'm not "writing off" bad experiences.. I choose to not focus on them because they don't matter and ultimately either way I'm wasting my time playing a video game.

To finish up and to address your final point, why should I have to leave because of a bad player? That is a fantastic way to drive away all the good players from interacting with others in the playerbase because they'll just get flamed and told "if you don't like my bad play, leave". The playerbase needs to realise it's on them to assist others to get better at the game and to remove those who do not want to from play until they wake up and understand that no one wants to play with them unless they actually try and that's really all anyone is asking for, for others to try and not just run around the arena of a boss, pressing their gcds when they feel like it and dying to mechanics and then typing in chat "haha oops xD".

Because the only experience you truly have control over is your own. Leaving is the easiest and least antagonistic way of dealing with it. Heck I'd even consider "we need to fix something or you can just kick me" to be well within reason. The playerbase is made of a wide array of people , all of differing abilities and constitutions and not considering this before starting with "our tank is... " or "The dps isn't.. "is a deeper problem than people not being "up to snuff".

I get where Krotoan is coming from, but it seems odd to expect people to be content with just clearing a dungeon, that's kind of the minimum. The game isn't difficult, hate to break it to anyone. I also don't think the silent kicks or silence when a group wipe happens has the person who might've caused it reflect on what they could have done better. I do genuinely believe some people stumble through content.

Content? No. Tolerated, yes. I don't feel the game is difficult by any stretch but I do know people, personally, who find certain aspects stressful. Aspects that are not strictly necessary.

I could spend an hour in a dungeon, but it could also take 15 minutes. I derive no greater fun nor pleasure being in the dungeon longer. It's why some peeps get peeved at single pulling tanks. You CAN pull two groups, so it costs nothing to do so. As far as I can tell, people run roulettes to get their tomestones for gear, not for the joy of running Thousand Maws again.

Yes to get things done. However the expectation that every random you find will not only get it done but get it done within your personal parameters is setting yourself up for aggravation and disappointment. There is a wildly varying playerbase out there, I encourage people to realize this rather than expect everyone they come across to meet their standards.

I want to restate the validity of both ends again. If you're someone who wants to have a pizza in one hand and your hand on WASD with the other, I think that's fine. With the elaborate and relevant crafting system in FFXIV, Housing, Social, and Combat aspects of FFXIV it's normal to have an array of people from all mindsets to play the game.

But if we're going to be tolerant and accepting that some people aren't going to understand their rotations, use CDs, and frankly sometimes slow things down; I feel it's only fair you don't crucify someone who mentions they want you to double pull or potentially offers well meaning advice. Toxicity goes both ways, forcing someone to pull wall to wall if they're not sure they can is toxic, forcing the entire party to play your way is too.

Not just "mindsets" but ability. It's not a choice for some. Youtube pizza guy may just NOT be able to focus on the game as you or I can. I don't believe ANYONE should force someone else to play as they wish, but I know the only thing we have complete control over is our own experience, therefor in the case that someone isn't performing up to your standards the easiest and least antagonistic way of dealing with it is to remove yourself from the situation. This is my suggestion, not a command. Otherwise all you'll end up doing is making yourself and the other person madder. You MAY help some of those people out there who actually don't know whats going on or how to deal with something, totally possible, but the second someone balks at your suggestion it's in your hands to let it go and chalk this run up to their own problem.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Not just "mindsets" but ability. It's not a choice for some. Youtube pizza guy may just NOT be able to focus on the game as you or I can. I don't believe ANYONE should force someone else to play as they wish, but I know the only thing we have complete control over is our own experience, therefor in the case that someone isn't performing up to your standards the easiest and least antagonistic way of dealing with it is to remove yourself from the situation. This is my suggestion, not a command. Otherwise all you'll end up doing is making yourself and the other person madder. You MAY help some of those people out there who actually don't know whats going on or how to deal with something, totally possible, but the second someone balks at your suggestion it's in your hands to let it go and chalk this run up to their own problem.

I think I see your stance on this a bit more clearly. It's about accessibility. I've no counterpoint on that, nor would I want to make anyone feel like MMORPG's are a space for the elites only, the genre only improves with new people lest they stay the same.

My counterpoint is this though; much like most of the internet you're not going to encounter people who are going to like/care/want to put up with someone who is underperforming. If you're queuing up for Savage content you probably don't care if the White Mage is hungry, or if the Paladin's AC just kicked off, you care about if they are holding aggro and healing. It might be old fashioned, but you can't expect others to cater to your specific needs. We all have our circumstances and with all due respect, if someone is that worried or anxious about running dungeons then I shall borrow your solution, and say they should use DF to make such a group.

I agree with the sentiment that you can control 10% of what happens to you, and that 90% of all things is how you react to it, but that same sentiment needs to be put on the people who might lack in ability as you stated. I don't think it's a valid argument to state that because someone is playing a game, the time they spend in it is useless because it's not work and it's a choice. I think that their fun is derived from the time spent in game, doing what they enjoy and for some it might be running dungeons.

I sort of wonder if you'd say "just leave" to someone if they were being antagonized by 3 others for falling into the free-cure trap. If I am understanding, it sounds as though you support the idea that we must move as fast as our slowest, and while touching, it's not reasonable to ask that of strangers whose time is just as valuable as yours. If we're going to tell people to make "Optimal Parties" in DF, I think we should see "Casual Parties or Laid-Back Parties" in DF as well. I don't think it's any more reasonable to ask strangers to be patient with you than it is to ask for the healer to keep up.

[Krotoan]

I think I see your stance on this a bit more clearly. It's about accessibility. I've no counterpoint on that, nor would I want to make anyone feel like MMORPG's are a space for the elites only, the genre only improves with new people lest they stay the same.

I'm glad you understand =]

My counterpoint is this though; much like most of the internet you're not going to encounter people who are going to like/care/want to put up with someone who is underperforming. If you're queuing up for Savage content you probably don't care if the White Mage is hungry, or if the Paladin's AC just kicked off, you care about if they are holding aggro and healing. It might be old fashioned, but you can't expect others to cater to your specific needs. We all have our circumstances and with all due respect, if someone is that worried or anxious about running dungeons then I shall borrow your solution, and say they should use DF to make such a group.

Ideally that's sound. In practice though the DF is the wild west and rather than expecting everyone else to improve to your standards, it's easier to suggest that the individual with problems with everyone else step back and maybe look at their own stake and options. The people we are discussing likely aren't even on this forum to read this and either wouldn't bother or wouldn't dare join in the discussion.

I agree with the sentiment that you can control 10% of what happens to you, and that 90% of all things is how you react to it, but that same sentiment needs to be put on the people who might lack in ability as you stated. I don't think it's a valid argument to state that because someone is playing a game, the time they spend in it is useless because it's not work and it's a choice. I think that their fun is derived from the time spent in game, doing what they enjoy and for some it might be running dungeons.

And that responsibility to make it enjoyable is up to them. I find that dwelling on the 1 or 2 randoms a week i get that are "poor performing" is a useless frustration about something inconsequential. It's hardly an epidemic of bad players. I would dare to say out of 4-8 runs of things I do a day on my gaming days it is a rarity to have someone noticeably bad in a party, even less so if I don't police everyone and LOOK for poor performance.

I sort of wonder if you'd say "just leave" to someone if they were being antagonized by 3 others for falling into the free-cure trap. If I am understanding, it sounds as though you support the idea that we must move as fast as our slowest, and while touching, it's not reasonable to ask that of strangers whose time is just as valuable as yours. If we're going to tell people to make "Optimal Parties" in DF, I think we should see "Casual Parties or Laid-Back Parties" in DF as well. I don't think it's any more reasonable to ask strangers to be patient with you than it is to ask for the healer to keep up.

I just feel that in the scheme of things the ask to "git gud" is a lot more demanding than a stance of "whatever, i'll never see these people again". Maybe it's sad that apathy comes easy or that I just perceive the entire thing as a waste of time anyway and I'm enjoying just playing the game.

... and I don't know what a "free cure" trap is.

I believe that in a time waster like any video game nobody is owed a particular experience, optimal or otherwise, but in general patience is a more desirable thing to practice than harrying.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Ideally that's sound. In practice though the DF is the wild west and rather than expecting everyone else to improve to your standards, it's easier to suggest that the individual with problems with everyone else step back and maybe look at their own stake and options. The people we are discussing likely aren't even on this forum to read this and either wouldn't bother or wouldn't dare join in the discussion.

It's this line that made me realize I've been using Duty Finder and Party Finder interchangeably, and that's my mistake. I think Party Finder where you can create and specify what the party's intended goal and preferences are can help people who are otherwise anxious to run dungeons conventionally. Although we are in complete agreement that the people we're discussing are not here and likely would not engage, which is a shame.

I don't think it's necessarily the occasionally bad player that gets people upset, but rather a seeming double standard that someone should be allowed to only heal as a healer, and do no dps since that is how they like to play. But then it is unjust for a tank to double pull for the full dungeon or triple pull at the end of Anamnesis Anyder because that's the pace they set. Both people are in a sense dictating the pace of the dungeon and if one is bad, then both should be. There seems to be a miscommunication on what griefing is.

I'll use the freecure trap as an example. The freecure trap is a topic of discussion regarding the "Freecure Trait" unlocked at level 32 for White Mage, which makes it so that there is a 15% chance that after casting Cure 1 your next Cure 2 costs 0MP. This can result in a WHM running high end content using Cure 1 during most of the dungeon hoping for the Freecure to trigger, this in turn means the Tank has less HP as Cure 1 has very low potency, maybe the tank can now not double pull, and now the DPS need to DPS harder to ensure the tank doesn't die, etc.

I believe in every dungeon we all have a percentage of the burden for success, whether it be 25% in a 4 person, or 12.5% of the burden in an 8 person, etc. If you're not doing something, it's compensated for by someone else. I don't think people like having to work harder for something or pick up the pace for someone else, thus someone might offer genuine advice and when it is outright rejected it can be seen as the person wants to be carried.

[SieyaM]

After reading this thread I think some of you are way too invested in what other players are doing whom you will never see again after the instance is over. It has been stated many times how easy regular dungeon and trial content is so demanding 100% possible uptime with best researched rotations and weaving is completely unnecessary. If you really feel someone is performing so poorly that you are no longer able to enjoy the game then maybe try to be helpful or leave the instance. A lot of people think saying something like "Do you now what you are doing you noob use (whatever skill they are not using)." is helpful criticism when it most certainly is not.

[znushu]

After reading this thread I think some of you are way too invested in what other players are doing whom you will never see again after the instance is over. It has been stated many times how easy regular dungeon and trial content is so demanding 100% possible uptime with best researched rotations and weaving is completely unnecessary. If you really feel someone is performing so poorly that you are no longer able to enjoy the game then maybe try to be helpful or leave the instance. A lot of people think saying something like "Do you now what you are doing you noob use (whatever skill they are not using)." is helpful criticism when it most certainly is not.

It's not just dungeon or trial content but also raid content as well. As Yoshi-p stated on Destructoid, quote:

We thought players would feel suffocated if we just had high-difficulty content, so alliance raids were positioned as a more casual type of content, even if there were some wipes along the way. This turned out to be well received, and we are also very satisfied with the current difficulty level. We plan to continue including this as one of our main forms of content.

A majority of the people in this thread also don't resemble the larger player base in game, since I rarely seen anyone be as hostile as the posts on these forums outside of launch date an beta (which I did take part in) and I think I know why but that's a topic for another day. The users in this thread, as you said: Are too invested into what other players are doing and the "criticism" they might use in other products is often just attacks on the player and not actually helpful in the long run as you pointed out and as strangely enough as also pointed out by the GM/RL in limit as well.

At the end of the day, this is a RPG first and massive multiplayer game second. This isn't life, it's a entertainment product.

[Packetdancer]

This is a lot of people's first MMO. I know it was mine. Especially people following the Final Fantasy franchise (as in standalone games), FFXIV is a very different animal.

Unfortunately there is little in-game training save for very basic first time lessons (Smiths, Guildhests) and these are not exactly pointed out to new players and are easily missable.

The game largely depends on the player base itself to lead the blind and most can't be bothered while the rest refuse to be led. I feel like an improved mentor system or even incentives for teaching other players (that doesn't involved random ques into synced Extremes content that is no longer relevant) would help a little but as far as I can tell no one has come up with a viable solution.

I mean, 'viable' is fairly subjective when it comes to theorycrafting, but I wrote up hypothetical revisions of both the mentor system and a system for helping players improve their performance.

Obviously they're just off-the-cuff and not real full systems design documents, with zero real chance that Square-Enix would actually use them. But I think they illustrate that the systems can be made workable, and don't need to be just scrapped outright.

[Krotoan]

It's this line that made me realize I've been using Duty Finder and Party Finder interchangeably, and that's my mistake. I think Party Finder where you can create and specify what the party's intended goal and preferences are can help people who are otherwise anxious to run dungeons conventionally. Although we are in complete agreement that the people we're discussing are not here and likely would not engage, which is a shame.

It's a useful tool indeed. And the best source of "control" for your experience. Which is why I feel the DF being such a random mishmash crapshoot should have much lower standards, I.E. Pass content is good enough.

I don't think it's necessarily the occasionally bad player that gets people upset, but rather a seeming double standard that someone should be allowed to only heal as a healer, and do no dps since that is how they like to play. But then it is unjust for a tank to double pull for the full dungeon or triple pull at the end of Anamnesis Anyder because that's the pace they set. Both people are in a sense dictating the pace of the dungeon and if one is bad, then both should be. There seems to be a miscommunication on what griefing is.

Griefing being underperforming or doing something to antagonize on purpose, I think a lot less people actually do it than people seem to think. It seems a lot of people seem to take someone halfheartedly doing daily content as a personal affront.. when it isn't. it's just someone going through the motions. Again though it's much easier to just slog through someone's underperformance than to try and drag someone into a higher level, especially if they are a key role. I don't feel it's particularly fair from an objective point of view, but it's such a minor thing I also wonder why people take it so seriously.

I'll use the freecure trap as an example. The freecure trap is a topic of discussion regarding the "Freecure Trait" unlocked at level 32 for White Mage, which makes it so that there is a 15% chance that after casting Cure 1 your next Cure 2 costs 0MP. This can result in a WHM running high end content using Cure 1 during most of the dungeon hoping for the Freecure to trigger, this in turn means the Tank has less HP as Cure 1 has very low potency, maybe the tank can now not double pull, and now the DPS need to DPS harder to ensure the tank doesn't die, etc.

Admitted that the healer could perform better, but is it really anyones place to push beyond their personal resistance after the initial "hey, I'm getting really close to dying every pull, can I give some healing rotation advice?"

I believe in every dungeon we all have a percentage of the burden for success, whether it be 25% in a 4 person, or 12.5% of the burden in an 8 person, etc. If you're not doing something, it's compensated for by someone else. I don't think people like having to work harder for something or pick up the pace for someone else, thus someone might offer genuine advice and when it is outright rejected it can be seen as the person wants to be carried.

And at that point it has to be also considered that it's not a personal affront and at very worst the parties involved can either remove themselves or the offending member. I don't like anyone AFK-ing in MSQ DF runs really.. but at the end of the day it's like.. 5 minutes longer. Yeah it's a cruddy thing to do, but is it worth getting worked up over?

[ElciaDeiLinus]

-sigh- Tbch this all funnels back to SE. They’ve made it into law by protecting players that play subpar and well below that with their rules. That works for JP just fine since you know, they care about wasting another player’s time and how they themselves perform. For NA, it only protects the players that make the experience pretty crappy for the people that actually care.

So, what, you want SE to start banning players that fail mechanics? Give out suspensions to people who parse under 50? Literally no game ever has, or ever will, punish players who play subpar. Acting like SE is unique in this is kinda comical- they aren't protecting anyone for playing poorly, and for all the complaining about SE it never seems like anyone is actually getting banned for giving constructive advice, as every time this thread is repeated everyone talks about SE being heavy handed yet all their complaints aren't about getting banned but about some player not taking their advice well. Well, SE can't force random players to obey random other players, not sure why you'd think they could or would. What it really seems the elitist community is disappointed in is that they can't target poor players with harassment and get away with it.

Do you want it so players can tear into each other on a whim without every needing to fear action?

That's basically how WoW works- and the community is absurdly toxic at all levels, allowing negative behaviour doesn't improve the playerbase it ruins it. Oh, but it does have the trade off- yeah, pug players in WoW are just so much better for it; LFR Argus 2-4 players dying in his slow scythe swings every time even months after it releases, hitting 10 det stacks on bosses like KJ and Archimonde. Raids where I'm the literal only player out of 20 capable of doing G'huune's ball toss mechanic- where the big challenge is walking forward... no seriously, no dodging a series of one shot moves that cover 90% of the area, no getting thrown off a cliff if you happen to be standing in the wrong place- you walk forward and toss a ball, and that's way beyond the capabilities of 90% of the casual WoW players.


I want to know where players get this idea that increasing toxic BS improves a community and elevates players, cuz you don't get much more toxic than WoW and you also will never find a casual playerbase so incompetent. And for those who keep talking about a recent 'trend' in the playerbase that seems to coincide with an exodus from BfA and the arrival of a lot of players who are very, very used to playing a game where toxicity is normal or even celebrated- maybe it's time to realize that highly toxic environments where anything goes does nothing to improve the playerbase?

Thing is, you always have the ability to make your experience great- form a premade, join a discord/FC/group that focuses on clearing content well and max'ing parses. If you're joining a pug, and then shocked that it's a pug, what are you thinking? I've been playing MMOs for a decade, since I was a little kid, and I've always known that a pug has bad quality players, this is how games are. Not MMOs, not even video games- games in general, board games, sports, etc... you join a random group of people with various skill levels for any game and you're going to get some that have significant varied skill and knowledge in the game.

Are you willing to sit down with random guy, spend hours going over how to improve on skill use, etc...? Or are you just going to tell them they suck and to get better? Cuz it's generally a lot of the latter, and then some overly sensitive person coming to these forums to complain a lot because their 'advice' was ignored.

Which is the real question- why is this community so sensitive about being told off by some random person you don't care about and will never see again because they didn't take your 'advice' well?

But let's say, for a moment, that the 'sensitive' bad players of FFXIV are a genuine problem with the game. What is the solution? Complain every other week about them on the forums? That seems to be the elitist solution right now, cuz I have yet to see any actual ideas on how to improve the skill level of tens if not hundreds of thousands of players who aren't interested in min/max parsing and just consider this a game to have fun with.

If you think, honestly, that you can join a group of random people and just start telling some of them they're doing stuff wrong and they'll accept that- you're either a professional at a job where you and they are being paid and the balance of power is both clear and supported by education/experience. Or, you're delusional. Seriously, join an FC/premade, work together to get better- players that want to improve will make it clear, and if that's the only type of player you want to play with there's more than enough players like that to form groups. The presence of a large group of players who aren't serious of the game is both inevitable, and something you can mitigate with the tools you are given.

[MagicAura]

Which is the real question- why is this community so sensitive about being told off by some random person you don't care about and will never see again because they didn't take your 'advice' well?

I agree with everything you've said but I want to address that question above: Being told off by anyone isn't a conductive way of learning. Depending on the person and their past experiences, being told off may have reactions ranging from stubbornly rejecting the 'advice' to being severely triggered with disastrous consequences. I know that some people don't consider the act of triggering as something worth taking into account but unfortunately that's the narcissistic view of things.

I believe it's always worth offering patient advice where appropriate in terms of time and activity. At one point a kind soul gave me advice at the end of a dungeon run regarding an efficient pre-50 black mage rotation. They were patient and kind. They didn't berate, didn't tell me to get good, they simply told me what I needed to do. That's conductive to learning but that requires patience and willingness to communicate. It's worth mentioning that my first internal reaction to their advice was to reject it. Surely I wasn't *that* wrong? But that was only internal, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, wrote down what they said, thanked them, then went out and tried things. To my 'surprise' they were correct, and I was wrong. Their advice helped me and I learned something. I was delighted in the end.

Helping and teaching is complicated and teachers go through extensive training to learn how to bypass the internal defensive mechanisms all of us have and conduct effective learning. The duty finder isn't the best place to learn things like optimal rotations. It's okay for mechanics especially on later dungeons but no more than that. Complaining and getting worked up about sub-par performance is simply a waste of energy. Trying to generalise and brand the entire player base with specific labels is equally wasteful.

Edit: Added missing 'defensive' word.