Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Not just "mindsets" but ability. It's not a choice for some. Youtube pizza guy may just NOT be able to focus on the game as you or I can. I don't believe ANYONE should force someone else to play as they wish, but I know the only thing we have complete control over is our own experience, therefor in the case that someone isn't performing up to your standards the easiest and least antagonistic way of dealing with it is to remove yourself from the situation. This is my suggestion, not a command. Otherwise all you'll end up doing is making yourself and the other person madder. You MAY help some of those people out there who actually don't know whats going on or how to deal with something, totally possible, but the second someone balks at your suggestion it's in your hands to let it go and chalk this run up to their own problem.

I think I see your stance on this a bit more clearly. It's about accessibility. I've no counterpoint on that, nor would I want to make anyone feel like MMORPG's are a space for the elites only, the genre only improves with new people lest they stay the same.

My counterpoint is this though; much like most of the internet you're not going to encounter people who are going to like/care/want to put up with someone who is underperforming. If you're queuing up for Savage content you probably don't care if the White Mage is hungry, or if the Paladin's AC just kicked off, you care about if they are holding aggro and healing. It might be old fashioned, but you can't expect others to cater to your specific needs. We all have our circumstances and with all due respect, if someone is that worried or anxious about running dungeons then I shall borrow your solution, and say they should use DF to make such a group.

I agree with the sentiment that you can control 10% of what happens to you, and that 90% of all things is how you react to it, but that same sentiment needs to be put on the people who might lack in ability as you stated. I don't think it's a valid argument to state that because someone is playing a game, the time they spend in it is useless because it's not work and it's a choice. I think that their fun is derived from the time spent in game, doing what they enjoy and for some it might be running dungeons.

I sort of wonder if you'd say "just leave" to someone if they were being antagonized by 3 others for falling into the free-cure trap. If I am understanding, it sounds as though you support the idea that we must move as fast as our slowest, and while touching, it's not reasonable to ask that of strangers whose time is just as valuable as yours. If we're going to tell people to make "Optimal Parties" in DF, I think we should see "Casual Parties or Laid-Back Parties" in DF as well. I don't think it's any more reasonable to ask strangers to be patient with you than it is to ask for the healer to keep up.

[Krotoan]

I think I see your stance on this a bit more clearly. It's about accessibility. I've no counterpoint on that, nor would I want to make anyone feel like MMORPG's are a space for the elites only, the genre only improves with new people lest they stay the same.

I'm glad you understand =]

My counterpoint is this though; much like most of the internet you're not going to encounter people who are going to like/care/want to put up with someone who is underperforming. If you're queuing up for Savage content you probably don't care if the White Mage is hungry, or if the Paladin's AC just kicked off, you care about if they are holding aggro and healing. It might be old fashioned, but you can't expect others to cater to your specific needs. We all have our circumstances and with all due respect, if someone is that worried or anxious about running dungeons then I shall borrow your solution, and say they should use DF to make such a group.

Ideally that's sound. In practice though the DF is the wild west and rather than expecting everyone else to improve to your standards, it's easier to suggest that the individual with problems with everyone else step back and maybe look at their own stake and options. The people we are discussing likely aren't even on this forum to read this and either wouldn't bother or wouldn't dare join in the discussion.

I agree with the sentiment that you can control 10% of what happens to you, and that 90% of all things is how you react to it, but that same sentiment needs to be put on the people who might lack in ability as you stated. I don't think it's a valid argument to state that because someone is playing a game, the time they spend in it is useless because it's not work and it's a choice. I think that their fun is derived from the time spent in game, doing what they enjoy and for some it might be running dungeons.

And that responsibility to make it enjoyable is up to them. I find that dwelling on the 1 or 2 randoms a week i get that are "poor performing" is a useless frustration about something inconsequential. It's hardly an epidemic of bad players. I would dare to say out of 4-8 runs of things I do a day on my gaming days it is a rarity to have someone noticeably bad in a party, even less so if I don't police everyone and LOOK for poor performance.

I sort of wonder if you'd say "just leave" to someone if they were being antagonized by 3 others for falling into the free-cure trap. If I am understanding, it sounds as though you support the idea that we must move as fast as our slowest, and while touching, it's not reasonable to ask that of strangers whose time is just as valuable as yours. If we're going to tell people to make "Optimal Parties" in DF, I think we should see "Casual Parties or Laid-Back Parties" in DF as well. I don't think it's any more reasonable to ask strangers to be patient with you than it is to ask for the healer to keep up.

I just feel that in the scheme of things the ask to "git gud" is a lot more demanding than a stance of "whatever, i'll never see these people again". Maybe it's sad that apathy comes easy or that I just perceive the entire thing as a waste of time anyway and I'm enjoying just playing the game.

... and I don't know what a "free cure" trap is.

I believe that in a time waster like any video game nobody is owed a particular experience, optimal or otherwise, but in general patience is a more desirable thing to practice than harrying.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Ideally that's sound. In practice though the DF is the wild west and rather than expecting everyone else to improve to your standards, it's easier to suggest that the individual with problems with everyone else step back and maybe look at their own stake and options. The people we are discussing likely aren't even on this forum to read this and either wouldn't bother or wouldn't dare join in the discussion.

It's this line that made me realize I've been using Duty Finder and Party Finder interchangeably, and that's my mistake. I think Party Finder where you can create and specify what the party's intended goal and preferences are can help people who are otherwise anxious to run dungeons conventionally. Although we are in complete agreement that the people we're discussing are not here and likely would not engage, which is a shame.

I don't think it's necessarily the occasionally bad player that gets people upset, but rather a seeming double standard that someone should be allowed to only heal as a healer, and do no dps since that is how they like to play. But then it is unjust for a tank to double pull for the full dungeon or triple pull at the end of Anamnesis Anyder because that's the pace they set. Both people are in a sense dictating the pace of the dungeon and if one is bad, then both should be. There seems to be a miscommunication on what griefing is.

I'll use the freecure trap as an example. The freecure trap is a topic of discussion regarding the "Freecure Trait" unlocked at level 32 for White Mage, which makes it so that there is a 15% chance that after casting Cure 1 your next Cure 2 costs 0MP. This can result in a WHM running high end content using Cure 1 during most of the dungeon hoping for the Freecure to trigger, this in turn means the Tank has less HP as Cure 1 has very low potency, maybe the tank can now not double pull, and now the DPS need to DPS harder to ensure the tank doesn't die, etc.

I believe in every dungeon we all have a percentage of the burden for success, whether it be 25% in a 4 person, or 12.5% of the burden in an 8 person, etc. If you're not doing something, it's compensated for by someone else. I don't think people like having to work harder for something or pick up the pace for someone else, thus someone might offer genuine advice and when it is outright rejected it can be seen as the person wants to be carried.

[Krotoan]

It's this line that made me realize I've been using Duty Finder and Party Finder interchangeably, and that's my mistake. I think Party Finder where you can create and specify what the party's intended goal and preferences are can help people who are otherwise anxious to run dungeons conventionally. Although we are in complete agreement that the people we're discussing are not here and likely would not engage, which is a shame.

It's a useful tool indeed. And the best source of "control" for your experience. Which is why I feel the DF being such a random mishmash crapshoot should have much lower standards, I.E. Pass content is good enough.

I don't think it's necessarily the occasionally bad player that gets people upset, but rather a seeming double standard that someone should be allowed to only heal as a healer, and do no dps since that is how they like to play. But then it is unjust for a tank to double pull for the full dungeon or triple pull at the end of Anamnesis Anyder because that's the pace they set. Both people are in a sense dictating the pace of the dungeon and if one is bad, then both should be. There seems to be a miscommunication on what griefing is.

Griefing being underperforming or doing something to antagonize on purpose, I think a lot less people actually do it than people seem to think. It seems a lot of people seem to take someone halfheartedly doing daily content as a personal affront.. when it isn't. it's just someone going through the motions. Again though it's much easier to just slog through someone's underperformance than to try and drag someone into a higher level, especially if they are a key role. I don't feel it's particularly fair from an objective point of view, but it's such a minor thing I also wonder why people take it so seriously.

I'll use the freecure trap as an example. The freecure trap is a topic of discussion regarding the "Freecure Trait" unlocked at level 32 for White Mage, which makes it so that there is a 15% chance that after casting Cure 1 your next Cure 2 costs 0MP. This can result in a WHM running high end content using Cure 1 during most of the dungeon hoping for the Freecure to trigger, this in turn means the Tank has less HP as Cure 1 has very low potency, maybe the tank can now not double pull, and now the DPS need to DPS harder to ensure the tank doesn't die, etc.

Admitted that the healer could perform better, but is it really anyones place to push beyond their personal resistance after the initial "hey, I'm getting really close to dying every pull, can I give some healing rotation advice?"

I believe in every dungeon we all have a percentage of the burden for success, whether it be 25% in a 4 person, or 12.5% of the burden in an 8 person, etc. If you're not doing something, it's compensated for by someone else. I don't think people like having to work harder for something or pick up the pace for someone else, thus someone might offer genuine advice and when it is outright rejected it can be seen as the person wants to be carried.

And at that point it has to be also considered that it's not a personal affront and at very worst the parties involved can either remove themselves or the offending member. I don't like anyone AFK-ing in MSQ DF runs really.. but at the end of the day it's like.. 5 minutes longer. Yeah it's a cruddy thing to do, but is it worth getting worked up over?