Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Jijifli]

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

[RajNish]

I've met different players. Those who made mistakes and corrected them. Those who made mistakes and did not correct them. Those who did not forgive the slightest mistake and started abusing. Those who helped others and were kind. Unfortunately, I was not very lucky. But I will always help those who are kind and those who are willing to listen. For others, I always have an exit button. I never forget that this is a game and that I can always stop it. Many people, sadly, somehow confuse it with reality.

[Iscah]

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

For what it's worth, DNC is one of the classes that feels like it maps really well to PS4 buttons. I'm not decided where to put all the extra skills, but the core "four dance buttons" work perfectly with the four face buttons. One-two combo on Circle and X; their corresponding triggered skills on Triangle and Square; repeat on the next hotbar for the AOE versions of the skills.

Mind you, if someone doesn't realise they can (and basically have to) rearrange their buttons then it's horribly all-over-the-place when you first unlock the job. Normally for console games, it's the developers' job to figure out a logical skill set that fits on and maps to the buttons, not just throwing everything at the user in a jumble and leaving them to work out if it even can be made to function comfortably.

[Krotoan]

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

[linayar]

And you think this is okay to perform like this ? If they are news i can understand but they still need to put some effort in the fight , they are not playing alone and they ruin other player experience

Subjectively, I don't think it's ok, but it depends on the healers trying, and if so, it may be ok. But if you can still clear the fight, it can actually be kind of fun beating a fight with some kind of handicap.

Objectively, it's up to the party. If no one tries to say anything to help the healers, no one tries to vote kick the healers, and they stay throughout the run, then they deserve that kind of healers. And if they clear the run, then great, they get whatever they get out of it.

[Gemina]

Is it just me or the players here are kinda sensitive and also not that good? Been playing the game since last fall and what I am noticing is that the players playing the game are not that good and they get easily butthurt when being criticized? Are all of these people just new to the genre or something? I've played many mmorpg games in my life and this one got me scratching my head sometime.

It's not a FFXIV thing. The over sensitivity of current western (perhaps global) culture is attributed to a whole lot more than what we should probably go into here. But in short yes, a lot of people these days are self-entitled, overly privileged, easily triggered snowflakes. No one ever slapped the spoon out of their mouth when they went for pudding first before the main entre.

As for not being all that good, it doesn't have to do with them being new to the genre so much as they are just lazy. I can accept players being bad if they are trying AND also improving. This tells me that they at least care about putting in an effort and don't want to hold the group back. Some of it does have to do with the 'everyone gets a ribbon' approach to job and encounter design. Many jobs and encounters are continuously simplified for the sake of accessibility. While this is a lucrative technique for the purpose of marketing the product, it is horrendous to what it does to the quality of the playerbase. I assure you this playerbase is far more toxic than it was when I started back in 2015. Granted, the majority of it can be found in echo and hive chambers rather than in game, but the consequences for misbehavior are also much less severe there opposed to in the game.

[RajNish]

But in short yes, a lot of people these days are self-entitled, overly privileged, easily triggered snowflakes.

And, unfortunately, it works both ways. People who think of themselves as professionals, confident that only for this reason they can be rude. And beginners who deny any advice and instantly fall into enrage. Better to spend half an hour crafting instead of spoiling the fun.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

I think it's just two different types of players crashing together. Different philosophies which is why the gap seemingly can't be bridged. Some players who believe that the slowest buffalo should be catered to, and some who believe that the fastest buffalo should be the example. Obscure metaphor, but I think SE could do a little more to drag everyone closer to the center. I've experienced a lot of players who don't do their rotations, use CDs or understand their class properly.

The thing that baffles me is how saying that someone who wants a player to understand their kit is considered selfish and unkind, but that the player who wants to stumble through content is not being selfish and unkind by making everyone else play around their choice of playstyle. It'd be like buying a ticket to an event; there is an unspoken understanding of what your purchase means. Participation and not breaking whatever rules. There is this weird trend in gaming lately, that paying for the game means you're allowed to do whatever you want. You can buy a movie ticket and enjoy the movie, but you might inconvenience someone if you fall asleep on their shoulder ten minutes in.

I agree the range of player "involvement" is a large shadow being cast over FF14 and I'll be curious to see if it's ever addressed, or if the game will go down the route I believe it will, which is catering more to casual content. Which is fine, but not a game that I'm looking to invest time into.


Edit/TLDR/Reply to OP: Yes I think the FFXIV community is a bit sensitive. Even when offered the politest advice from the most well meaning of places I've been told from the range of MYOB to off myself.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them. This seems like a very counter-productive attitude that exists purely to justify bad players being bad. I feel sorry for Jijifli because it wasn't their party so they couldn't kick this problematic DNC, but according to you, Jijifli also shouldn't even mention that the DNC is being a nuisance and actually shouldn't even be in said party. We deal with this kind of issue in parties constantly, regardless of content or level, where players just don't put the effort in that others do. This is a team game, if you're not willing to put the effort in and respect your fellow players time, you should not be playing this game, it's selfish beyond belief. No one is entitled to free clears and carries in content just because they don't want to actually try.

I've spoken up in a farm PF before about a player who was dying to all the mechanics and generally just not helping. I got told that person was a friend of said PF leader and they only kicked them after they had been DC'd for about 10 minutes. I shut up after I found it was there friend because I know how it goes, there was a potential for me to get kicked if I kept complaining because people would rather defend their bad friends than admit they shouldn't be there. Did I mention this bad player DC'd after winning the mount the first time it dropped? Very cool.

[Jaelommiss]

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them.

This is an enormous issue. I started playing in Stormblood and thought I was pretty good. I spent over a month at level 70 before I learned about FFLogs and was able to see that my best performance was 16th percentile in an alliance raid. It was the kick in the pants I needed to get better. If I'd never seen that I'd probably still be terrible. No one had ever said anything about my performance, though I'm certain that I frustrated a ton of players with how bad I was.

If players aren't allowed to let people know that there is significant room to improve and provide feedback on how to do so, then the game needs to. Being given a rating compared to other players at the end of instances would be a good start.