Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Krotoan]

So they INTENTIONALLY want to play poorly? Most other games call that trolling. Are you seriously advocating for trolling, or what's your game here?

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

Ah, so doing absolutely nothing for half an instance is acceptable to you, huh? Hey everyone. Tell me another team game where going AFK for half of the overall time you're playing with the AFK person is acceptable.

It's not, dude. You should be ashamed. For the hypothetical Dragoon player of course. The one who totally wasn't you but was completely a made up random Dragoon.

I'm saying that in the scheme of the game Mr Half instance AFK is unusual and easily ignored and left alone as long as content is cleared. I'm not the one having a (hypothetical) panic attack because some random in a game is probably eating a pizza and watching youtube instead of adderall focusing an instance I happen to be in. I'm already wasting time playing a video game, guy is maybe adding 10-15 minutes at most to this run. No skin off my nose.
Are you thinking that leveling a sub-par dragoon performance at me is going to be specifically triggering because I main Dragoon?

Oh, dear sweet summer child, I'm fully aware you don't care about anything. In addition, bad players can't tell when they're playing with bad players because they're playing with good company. Or so I've heard. I would NEVER criticize another player.

Your very unveiled accusations mean nothing. Care about what you do, don't focus on everyone else to try and make you feel good about yourself.

[Darsien]

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

Hey dude. I just want players to not AFK and to do a basic rotation. If that's too hard for someone, there are a TON of single player games out there for them. =)

I'm saying that in the scheme of the game Mr Half instance AFK is unusual and easily ignored and left alone as long as content is cleared. I'm not the one having a (hypothetical) panic attack because some random in a game is probably eating a pizza and watching youtube instead of adderall focusing an instance I happen to be in. I'm already wasting time playing a video game, guy is maybe adding 10-15 minutes at most to this run. No skin off my nose.
Are you thinking that leveling a sub-par dragoon performance at me is going to be specifically triggering because I main Dragoon?

Ah, so focusing ON CONTENT THAT YOU QUEUED FOR requires Adderall, huh? I'm sorry to hear you have such a debilitating addiction to narcotics! If you'd like, I can give you a few rehab resources to get you back on track. =)

Your very unveiled accusations mean nothing. Care about what you do, don't focus on everyone else to try and make you feel good about yourself.

Ah, but you see, when someone advocates for lazy, inconsiderate, selfish play, they open themselves up for criticism! Say our Hypothetical Dragoon was making the posts you are. I mean, if they were to... Say... Go afk for half the instance in all the recorded content I've got access to view, you know, HYPOTHETICALLY, I'd need to question their motives. Are they advocating for, to be blunt, TOXIC, selfish play because they think that's how it should be, or are they REALLY doing it because to not do so would mean that... GASP, they're a toxic player!

You know. Hypothetically.

Nice Borg glam btw. Least I hope it's Borg. We need more Trek-inspired glams.

[Krotoan]

Hey dude. I just want players to not AFK and to do a basic rotation. If that's too hard for someone, there are a TON of single player games out there for them. =)

Or they can play the game their way and you can avoid them if you can't stand it. Every multiplayer game out there is going to have people who are "bad" for whatever reason. Nobody is forcing you to play with them.

Ah, so focusing ON CONTENT THAT YOU QUEUED FOR requires Adderall, huh? I'm sorry to hear you have such a debilitating addiction to narcotics! If you'd like, I can give you a few rehab resources to get you back on track. =)

You missed the point entirely and are quite obviously a huge troll. 1 post from being ignored forever, though I think that's probably being too generous for my own good.

Ah, but you see, when someone advocates for lazy, inconsiderate, selfish play, they open themselves up for criticism! I mean, if you were to... Say... Go afk for half the instance in all the recorded content I've got access to view, you know, HYPOTHETICALLY, I'd need to question your motives. Are you advocating for, to be blunt, TOXIC, selfish play because you think that's how it should be, or are you REALLY doing it because to not do so would mean that... GASP, you're a toxic player!

You know. Hypothetically.

Nice Borg glam btw. Least I hope it's Borg. We need more Trek-inspired glams.

I'm advocating for tolerant play and indifference to the absolutely random mishmash of players you will get in DF. You want optimal, go make optimal. DF is for getting caps and XP done. I really don't know what this "half afk" stuff you're talking about is, some parse log somewhere that would get you banned if you outright named it I guess? It's very possible that's out there somewhere for a run I did at somepoint and I was called away or literally did not understand the fight. Go ahead and post it, i don't care. My life isn't validated by numbers in a game. Apparently it's super important to you though so if it makes you feel better, enjoy. I don't measure my worth by how I do in a video game.



the "Borg" glam is the "sable death mask". Gotten from completing one of the final "bloodsworn" combination quests. I think it looks neat.. yknow.. like you would for a glam.

[Jijifli]

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

[Iscah]

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

For what it's worth, DNC is one of the classes that feels like it maps really well to PS4 buttons. I'm not decided where to put all the extra skills, but the core "four dance buttons" work perfectly with the four face buttons. One-two combo on Circle and X; their corresponding triggered skills on Triangle and Square; repeat on the next hotbar for the AOE versions of the skills.

Mind you, if someone doesn't realise they can (and basically have to) rearrange their buttons then it's horribly all-over-the-place when you first unlock the job. Normally for console games, it's the developers' job to figure out a logical skill set that fits on and maps to the buttons, not just throwing everything at the user in a jumble and leaving them to work out if it even can be made to function comfortably.

[Krotoan]

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them. This seems like a very counter-productive attitude that exists purely to justify bad players being bad. I feel sorry for Jijifli because it wasn't their party so they couldn't kick this problematic DNC, but according to you, Jijifli also shouldn't even mention that the DNC is being a nuisance and actually shouldn't even be in said party. We deal with this kind of issue in parties constantly, regardless of content or level, where players just don't put the effort in that others do. This is a team game, if you're not willing to put the effort in and respect your fellow players time, you should not be playing this game, it's selfish beyond belief. No one is entitled to free clears and carries in content just because they don't want to actually try.

I've spoken up in a farm PF before about a player who was dying to all the mechanics and generally just not helping. I got told that person was a friend of said PF leader and they only kicked them after they had been DC'd for about 10 minutes. I shut up after I found it was there friend because I know how it goes, there was a potential for me to get kicked if I kept complaining because people would rather defend their bad friends than admit they shouldn't be there. Did I mention this bad player DC'd after winning the mount the first time it dropped? Very cool.

[Jaelommiss]

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them.

This is an enormous issue. I started playing in Stormblood and thought I was pretty good. I spent over a month at level 70 before I learned about FFLogs and was able to see that my best performance was 16th percentile in an alliance raid. It was the kick in the pants I needed to get better. If I'd never seen that I'd probably still be terrible. No one had ever said anything about my performance, though I'm certain that I frustrated a ton of players with how bad I was.

If players aren't allowed to let people know that there is significant room to improve and provide feedback on how to do so, then the game needs to. Being given a rating compared to other players at the end of instances would be a good start.

[Gemina]

This is an enormous issue. I started playing in Stormblood and thought I was pretty good. I spent over a month at level 70 before I learned about FFLogs and was able to see that my best performance was 16th percentile in an alliance raid. It was the kick in the pants I needed to get better. If I'd never seen that I'd probably still be terrible. No one had ever said anything about my performance, though I'm certain that I frustrated a ton of players with how bad I was.

If players aren't allowed to let people know that there is significant room to improve and provide feedback on how to do so, then the game needs to. Being given a rating compared to other players at the end of instances would be a good start.

Yeah... No it's not. This is more attributed to supporters of parsers getting their voice to be acknowledged and heard throughout the community. While this is not necessarily a bad thing because it does promote better play, the unfortunate thing about it is that they make a bigger issue than what is realistically present.

If we were to go by that philosophy than every PS4 player would suck. Do you truly believe that? Are you going to tell every console player right here and now that they have no place in high end duties?

Truth of the matter ties into what the OP is talking about. The common denominator is so low now that if you care about your performance and rotation; you actually read and understand tooltips; then you are already better than 80% of the players out there.

[Mechnikov_the_Jotunn]

Truth of the matter ties into what the OP is talking about. The common denominator is so low now that if you care about your performance and rotation; you actually read and understand tooltips; then you are already better than 80% of the players out there.

I sadly agree with this. I don't think giving the group a letter grade is the direction it needs to go in either.

SE's light anti-parsing stance seems to be based in that they don't want people to sweat about performing perfectly in-game, something a lot of people have weaponized into running as far into the "I can auto-attack through the dungeon and it's valid" kind of camp.

Problem is that if you're given a colorful sticker regardless of how you do on a test for example, the natural outcome is that everyone stops trying because there is no longer a difference in doing well and "doing". It's why you see people argue that if it takes you an hour to clear a dungeon, you cleared, why are you angry? Because we can do it in 20 minutes.

I believe a larger issue is that we can't control our experience in FFXIV very well. If you want to gather/craft and ignore all combat stuff? You do you. Savages? Go for it. But we want to play with like minded people and simply saying to "Make a group in DF" isn't a helpful response. How would you control that? Anyone can have item level 500, and I'm pretty sure there isn't a nice way to portray you want to clear dungeons in however much time without it sounding like you're implying something negative on the general community.