Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Darsien]

Your example makes the experience "better" for you. Maybe they don't care? Honestly barring cutting edge and "ultimate" runs... you can get through all the content decently quick enough without being extra efficient.

Also some food for thought: How many runs go by where everything goes smoothly that you don't notice? Try to pay attention to those and see if it doesn't seem to balance out better.

I already know the answer, but I'll still ask my question because you're the sort of person I've been referencing. What joy!

So, question is this: What is the downside for a player to improve so that that "decently quick enough" becomes "quick enough because did my part?"

As a follow up, let me give a hypothetical. Bolding for visibility since this is the main part of the post, really and I can't figure out how to do a line break on a forum layout that hasn't been updated since 2012.

Say we have... Oh, I don't know. A Dragoon player. They go into Ramuh normal. They do literally nothing for 40% of the time (Ramuh normal is a 100% uptime fight, by the way). They keep Chaos Thrust, a natural part of the rotation that has 100% uptime by default... Oh, I dunno. Let's give a random number of... 29.07%. In spite going down the path with Disembowel to have that percentage of uptime, they still have... Oh, let's say 38.33% Disembowel uptime somehow. They also failed to use their CDs, save for high jump.... 40-80% of the time. Finally, out of Nastrond uses, this random, totally hypothetical Dragoon only used it 8 times, out of 18 possible uses. This super mega hypothetical Dragoon did NOT die. Please keep that in mind.

Would you say this Dragoon, who LITERALLY DID NOTHING FOR HALF THE FIGHT, carried their weight? Did their part? Helped that... Oof, that was a long HYPOTHETICAL Ramuh normal... But helped it go "quickly enough?" Please, give me your insights. =)

To address the second half of your post: 70% of the end game dungeon runs I've been in have had 1 or more of the following qualities: Single Pull tank, Zero DPS healer, non-AoE DPS, any of the 3 that clearly didn't know what they were doing. By the latter most, I'm not talking about "missed a CD here, missed a positional there." No, I'm talking on the scale of Black Mages using Transpose end game. Like, as part of their rotation. I had 2 of those in a row. They were indeed different Black Mages. Their AoE rotation was to spam freeze. The healers did more then them.

If any of those things are present, the dungeon run isn't going smoothly. 70% is a pretty large chunk, eh? Gets worse if you look at leveling 71-80. Oh boy. I leveled an Alt and a different job and I can say that I've seen some things.

[Krotoan]

I already know the answer, but I'll still ask my question because you're the sort of person I've been referencing. What joy!

So, question is this: What is the downside for a player to improve so that that "decently quick enough" becomes "quick enough because did my part?"

You are making them play as they don't wish to play. That's the downside. The same could be said for the reverse of course but all parties have the same option to just drop or to kick. Both of which should be taken as simply a difference of playstyles IMO. No hard feelings, not personal just "I do not wish to play with you for whatever reason".

Also.. why are you coming off so sarcastically? "what joy!" indeed.

As a follow up, let me give a hypothetical. Quoting for visibility since this is the main part of the post, really.

Would you say this Dragoon, who LITERALLY DID NOTHING FOR HALF THE FIGHT, carried their weight? Did their part? Helped that... Oof, that was a long HYPOTHETICAL Ramuh normal... But helped it go "quickly enough?" Please, give me your insights. =)

I would say that micromanaging a random dragoon for a normal fight is getting far too involved in what other people are doing. Did you pass? Cool. None of the rest should be your concern. Did you fail? If you did THEN it's time to address where the failure is coming from and if super obvious , E.G. the dragoon is visibly not using skills or standing in things, that person can be voted out. You should not get overly involved with how someone else is playing if the content is being cleared in DF. If it is not being cleared to your liking you can remove yourself from the situation and/or give a non-accusatory suggestion. If you NEED things done a certain way make your own parties and don't rely on the game to bring you "good" players.

To address the second half of your post: 70% of the end game dungeon runs I've been in have had 1 or more of the following qualities: Single Pull tank, Zero DPS healer, non-AoE DPS, any of the 3 that clearly didn't know what they were doing. By the latter most, I'm not talking about "missed a CD here, missed a positional there." No, I'm talking on the scale of Black Mages using Transpose end game. Like, as part of their rotation. I had 2 of those in a row. They were indeed different Black Mages. Their AoE rotation was to spam freeze. The healers did more then them.

If any of those things are present, the dungeon run isn't going smoothly. 70% is a pretty large chunk, eh? Gets worse if you look at leveling 71-80. Oh boy. I leveled an Alt and a different job and I can say that I've seen some things.

I have leveled every single job and 2 alts and I can say the amount of noticeably bad players I've had to endure has been 2-3 a week (capping all tomes, doing all weekly lockouts) at most. So personal experiences may vary ( I am on sarg which I hear is notoriously "git gud") . I don't care if healers don't DPS, I don't care if tanks single pull, I don't care if other DPS single target. All of these things will still pass any DF content. If I want things done efficiently I'll make sure that happens myself. If I run a roulette I'm agreeing to deal with whatever I get. Someone is that bad? Kick em or leave. How would you take someone telling you that you were playing your character wrong? Probably not half as well as you say you would.

[Darsien]

You are making them play as they don't wish to play. That's the downside. The same could be said for the reverse of course but all parties have the same option to just drop or to kick. Both of which should be taken as simply a difference of playstyles IMO. No hard feelings, not personal just "I do not wish to play with you for whatever reason".

Also.. why are you coming off so sarcastically? "what joy!" indeed.

So they INTENTIONALLY want to play poorly? Most other games call that trolling. Are you seriously advocating for trolling, or what's your game here?

I would say that micromanaging a random dragoon for a normal fight is getting far too involved in what other people are doing. Did you pass? Cool. None of the rest should be your concern. Did you fail? If you did THEN it's time to address where the failure is coming from and if super obvious , E.G. the dragoon is visibly not using skills or standing in things, that person can be voted out. You should not get overly involved with how someone else is playing if the content is being cleared in DF. If it is not being cleared to your liking you can remove yourself from the situation and/or give a non-accusatory suggestion. If you NEED things done a certain way make your own parties and don't rely on the game to bring you "good" players.

Ah, so doing absolutely nothing for half an instance is acceptable to you, huh? Hey everyone. Tell me another team game where going AFK for half of the overall time you're playing with the AFK person is acceptable.

It's not, dude. You should be ashamed. For the hypothetical Dragoon player of course. The one who totally wasn't you but was completely a made up random Dragoon. Can't kick an AFK player if you clear in the first pull and carry the AFK player. They received a reward they only half deserved. =(

I have leveled every single job and 2 alts and I can say the amount of noticeably bad players I've had to endure has been 2-3 a week (capping all tomes, doing all weekly lockouts) at most. So personal experiences may vary ( I am on sarg which I hear is notoriously "git gud") . I don't care if healers don't DPS, I don't care if tanks single pull, I don't care if other DPS single target. All of these things will still pass any DF content. If I want things done efficiently I'll make sure that happens myself. If I run a roulette I'm agreeing to deal with whatever I get. Someone is that bad? Kick em or leave. How would you take someone telling you that you were playing your character wrong? Probably not half as well as you say you would.

Oh, dear sweet summer child, I'm fully aware you don't care about anything. In addition, bad players can't tell when they're playing with bad players because they're stuck in a feedback loop. Or so I've heard. I would NEVER criticize another player.

Also, another advantage of learning to play well and do my part: I never get told I'm playing wrong because I'm always playing right. Gee. Sounds like it'd be a blessing for... SOME players.



A simple reminder: It's a team game. As a member of a team, likely random ones, YOU, YES YOU, READER, have a RESPONSIBILITY to know what you're doing. That hypothetical Dragoon didn't, and you wanna know what happened? 3 players died at the end of the fight, an end that they never would of seen if our hypothetical Dragoon did their part. No one likes dying. They had a net negative impact on 3 players and didn't even know it. =(

Don't be like the hypothetical Dragoon. Do your part. Let the dirt tank the floor instead of your teammates.

[Krotoan]

So they INTENTIONALLY want to play poorly? Most other games call that trolling. Are you seriously advocating for trolling, or what's your game here?

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

Ah, so doing absolutely nothing for half an instance is acceptable to you, huh? Hey everyone. Tell me another team game where going AFK for half of the overall time you're playing with the AFK person is acceptable.

It's not, dude. You should be ashamed. For the hypothetical Dragoon player of course. The one who totally wasn't you but was completely a made up random Dragoon.

I'm saying that in the scheme of the game Mr Half instance AFK is unusual and easily ignored and left alone as long as content is cleared. I'm not the one having a (hypothetical) panic attack because some random in a game is probably eating a pizza and watching youtube instead of adderall focusing an instance I happen to be in. I'm already wasting time playing a video game, guy is maybe adding 10-15 minutes at most to this run. No skin off my nose.
Are you thinking that leveling a sub-par dragoon performance at me is going to be specifically triggering because I main Dragoon?

Oh, dear sweet summer child, I'm fully aware you don't care about anything. In addition, bad players can't tell when they're playing with bad players because they're playing with good company. Or so I've heard. I would NEVER criticize another player.

Your very unveiled accusations mean nothing. Care about what you do, don't focus on everyone else to try and make you feel good about yourself.

[Darsien]

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

Hey dude. I just want players to not AFK and to do a basic rotation. If that's too hard for someone, there are a TON of single player games out there for them. =)

I'm saying that in the scheme of the game Mr Half instance AFK is unusual and easily ignored and left alone as long as content is cleared. I'm not the one having a (hypothetical) panic attack because some random in a game is probably eating a pizza and watching youtube instead of adderall focusing an instance I happen to be in. I'm already wasting time playing a video game, guy is maybe adding 10-15 minutes at most to this run. No skin off my nose.
Are you thinking that leveling a sub-par dragoon performance at me is going to be specifically triggering because I main Dragoon?

Ah, so focusing ON CONTENT THAT YOU QUEUED FOR requires Adderall, huh? I'm sorry to hear you have such a debilitating addiction to narcotics! If you'd like, I can give you a few rehab resources to get you back on track. =)

Your very unveiled accusations mean nothing. Care about what you do, don't focus on everyone else to try and make you feel good about yourself.

Ah, but you see, when someone advocates for lazy, inconsiderate, selfish play, they open themselves up for criticism! Say our Hypothetical Dragoon was making the posts you are. I mean, if they were to... Say... Go afk for half the instance in all the recorded content I've got access to view, you know, HYPOTHETICALLY, I'd need to question their motives. Are they advocating for, to be blunt, TOXIC, selfish play because they think that's how it should be, or are they REALLY doing it because to not do so would mean that... GASP, they're a toxic player!

You know. Hypothetically.

Nice Borg glam btw. Least I hope it's Borg. We need more Trek-inspired glams.

[Krotoan]

Hey dude. I just want players to not AFK and to do a basic rotation. If that's too hard for someone, there are a TON of single player games out there for them. =)

Or they can play the game their way and you can avoid them if you can't stand it. Every multiplayer game out there is going to have people who are "bad" for whatever reason. Nobody is forcing you to play with them.

Ah, so focusing ON CONTENT THAT YOU QUEUED FOR requires Adderall, huh? I'm sorry to hear you have such a debilitating addiction to narcotics! If you'd like, I can give you a few rehab resources to get you back on track. =)

You missed the point entirely and are quite obviously a huge troll. 1 post from being ignored forever, though I think that's probably being too generous for my own good.

Ah, but you see, when someone advocates for lazy, inconsiderate, selfish play, they open themselves up for criticism! I mean, if you were to... Say... Go afk for half the instance in all the recorded content I've got access to view, you know, HYPOTHETICALLY, I'd need to question your motives. Are you advocating for, to be blunt, TOXIC, selfish play because you think that's how it should be, or are you REALLY doing it because to not do so would mean that... GASP, you're a toxic player!

You know. Hypothetically.

Nice Borg glam btw. Least I hope it's Borg. We need more Trek-inspired glams.

I'm advocating for tolerant play and indifference to the absolutely random mishmash of players you will get in DF. You want optimal, go make optimal. DF is for getting caps and XP done. I really don't know what this "half afk" stuff you're talking about is, some parse log somewhere that would get you banned if you outright named it I guess? It's very possible that's out there somewhere for a run I did at somepoint and I was called away or literally did not understand the fight. Go ahead and post it, i don't care. My life isn't validated by numbers in a game. Apparently it's super important to you though so if it makes you feel better, enjoy. I don't measure my worth by how I do in a video game.



the "Borg" glam is the "sable death mask". Gotten from completing one of the final "bloodsworn" combination quests. I think it looks neat.. yknow.. like you would for a glam.

[Jijifli]

No, they want to play how they want to play comfortably. It's you calling it "poorly". It may also be the limit at which they are comfortable but keep thinking your standards and abilities are everyones.

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

[Iscah]

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

For what it's worth, DNC is one of the classes that feels like it maps really well to PS4 buttons. I'm not decided where to put all the extra skills, but the core "four dance buttons" work perfectly with the four face buttons. One-two combo on Circle and X; their corresponding triggered skills on Triangle and Square; repeat on the next hotbar for the AOE versions of the skills.

Mind you, if someone doesn't realise they can (and basically have to) rearrange their buttons then it's horribly all-over-the-place when you first unlock the job. Normally for console games, it's the developers' job to figure out a logical skill set that fits on and maps to the buttons, not just throwing everything at the user in a jumble and leaving them to work out if it even can be made to function comfortably.

[Krotoan]

I just want to focus on this, with my reading through stuff so far, and bring up a story. And yes, I get this was unsynced, I don't really care.

I joined a party to do Jade Stoa EX, to farm the doggo. I get it, it's old content, but I want to focus on the dancer that was in the party. In each of the pulls, they were very consistent in doing... Let's see.

1) Never performing either step dance ever.
2) In terms of actual attacks, only Cascade, and that wasn't even full uptime, plenty of space. Speaking of which.
3) using Improvisation during the fight, in the corner of the room, for the full 15 second duration.

When I asked what they were doing, the excuse given was they were on PS4, and performing DNC's kit was uncomfortable on PS4 for them. To which I just had the big question in my head of "Why are you even on the class then if doing DNC's bare minimum is too difficult?"

Would you say that I am simply calling this DNC "poor" at play, when they are just doing what they felt was comfortable? We still kill it, but they aren't contributing, yet are still going to combat the party for the mount. Their choice does in fact have an effect on what I am doing, by not only making it take longer for each drop, but potentially denying me and everyone else that reward while doing so.

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

[Irisdina_Wiloh]

And you have a perfectly valid right to remove them from your party.. but not to tell them how to play or that they're doing badly. It comes from both sides that if you're not going to play up to "standards" expect to not be included in parties where that is a concern, however if someone is holding back everyone I see nothing wrong with eliminating them from the run. The problem lies in judging and persecuting.

How will anyone ever know they're playing poorly or straight up wrong if no one ever tells them. This seems like a very counter-productive attitude that exists purely to justify bad players being bad. I feel sorry for Jijifli because it wasn't their party so they couldn't kick this problematic DNC, but according to you, Jijifli also shouldn't even mention that the DNC is being a nuisance and actually shouldn't even be in said party. We deal with this kind of issue in parties constantly, regardless of content or level, where players just don't put the effort in that others do. This is a team game, if you're not willing to put the effort in and respect your fellow players time, you should not be playing this game, it's selfish beyond belief. No one is entitled to free clears and carries in content just because they don't want to actually try.

I've spoken up in a farm PF before about a player who was dying to all the mechanics and generally just not helping. I got told that person was a friend of said PF leader and they only kicked them after they had been DC'd for about 10 minutes. I shut up after I found it was there friend because I know how it goes, there was a potential for me to get kicked if I kept complaining because people would rather defend their bad friends than admit they shouldn't be there. Did I mention this bad player DC'd after winning the mount the first time it dropped? Very cool.