Lets talk about the FFXIV player base..

[Veis_Alveare]

It's one thing to not want to say something bad, but your examples just seem so unproductive to the point I wonder if they're real examples or just your exaggeration. If people are being told they're great when they're not, then I guess this community deserves what it gets in terms of the quality of players.

So being forced to not give any actual feedback by ridiculous ToS but occasionally getting frustrated by that and being sarcastic means that the whole game deserves to suffer.

To borrow the idea of telling that level 80 dps doing 3k how good they are - wow, you have amazing logic.

[linayar]

So being forced to not give any actual feedback by ridiculous ToS but occasionally getting frustrated by that and being sarcastic means that the whole game deserves to suffer.

To borrow the idea of telling that level 80 dps doing 3k how good they are - wow, you have amazing logic.

My logic is indeed amazing since being frustrated is no excuse to lie.

And in case you're not aware, sarcasm can be hard to tell over text.

[Penthea]

That's because if you write something hostile you will get banned/suspended. So people have to express their displeasure more indirectly. Like if someone is dying to every mechanic, you can't just outright say "you suck" because u get reported so people will say something like "you're an amazing player." Or if you see someone doing 3k dps in level 80 gear, you can't say anything or you will get punished, so people will say "great job with dps!"

Saying "you suck" in response to someone not playing well isn't helpful for anyone. People don't magically improve with only "you suck" as their guidance.

You can be more diplomatic and helpful with criticisms without getting banned. You can instead say "we need more damage on the boss" or "dodge X mechanic by doing Y". There are sometimes ways to make people aware of a situation and give advice without targeting someone specific with what you say. And if things still don't improve then you can vote to kick.

Also I have very rarely seen players being told they're great when they're not. I honestly rarely see players say anything to each other at all aside from a greeting at the beginning and a gg at the end. I legit can't remember the last time I witnessed very undeserving praise.

But I play in EU on Chaos. Maybe it's different elsewhere.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

[linayar]

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

A community deals with people's interaction, so you being bad on your own has nothing to do with the community. Deterrence is a valid reason for punishment in law enforcement and expecting that a community can only be good if the people are truly good without law and order being necessary is unrealistic.

[Nixxe]

If it's a bad community masquerading as a good one just because they'd get the suspending slap on the wrist otherwise, at best it's average, at worst it's outright bad.

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

[linayar]

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

Someone being "passive aggressive," depending on how they go about doing it, can be ignored more easily than someone being directly aggressive. The latter creates a more apparent toxic environment for the entire group.

If you go by the example just above, saying "great DPS" when you don't really mean it can be taken as a real compliment by the other side. So that would actually add to the idea of FFXIV's community being great rather than toxic.

[KaijinRhada]

Yeah, I really don't get why people think the WoW community is ultra toxic while praising this one. The only thing I can figure is that toxicity in this game is often very passive aggressive, while in WoW it's just ordinary aggressive aggressive. Both games in my experience have always been filled with the standard array of MMO players, and FFXIV is noticeably more WoW-like these days than it was back in ARR.

I feel like it's a bit different in WoW in how toxicity presents itself, and perhaps in part because of PvP, and a faction-driven game. The way the players and devs communicate with each other, and the forum culture on WoW is also very different, and I would say it feels a bit more like a cesspool, but you get used to it if you've been around there for 15 years like I have. PvP and faction tribalism is the main driver of toxicity I've found. Sprinkle in the variance of spec balance gaps and feeling like X spec is showered with attention by the devs, while other specs languish, and you'll get a pretty spicy playerbase.

Actually running PvE content, I did raids in BC, HM/Heroic in WotLK, and Mythic and M+ in Legion, I don't think I ran into a lot of (if any) toxic players. Granted a number of those are done with my guildies, but even LFD and pugging across various levels were pretty okay. Not back when we had to LFG in chat channels good, mind you, but it wasn't bad.

[Nixxe]

and the forum culture on WoW is also very different,

Really gotta disagree there. General Discussion on both forums is basically the same. The only major difference is that the FFXIV playerbase generally has more positive feelings about SE and Yoshi P than the WoW playerbase does about Blizzard and Watcher (or Ghostcrawler and Kalgan before him). How people interact with each other, the sorts of gripes they have about the game, and the lines of conflict are basically all identical. Unlike WoW itself, Blizzard has always treated the forums as a totally optional privilege and is therefore utterly merciless when it comes to banning people from them, no different than SE.

[KaijinRhada]

Really gotta disagree there. General Discussion on both forums is basically the same. The only major difference is that the FFXIV playerbase generally has more positive feelings about SE and Yoshi P than the WoW playerbase does about Blizzard and Watcher (or Ghostcrawler and Kalgan before him). How people interact with each other, the sorts of gripes they have about the game, and the lines of conflict are basically all identical. Unlike WoW itself, Blizzard has always treated the forums as a totally optional privilege and is therefore utterly merciless when it comes to banning people from them, no different than SE.

The less-positive outlook form the WoW forums, I feel, makes a pretty big difference. There's going to be shitposts on both forums, but it's a lot more prevalent there. The ire that the playerbase on WoW towards the dev team is more highly pronounced; while it maybe because it's a longer running game, and some of the ire is deserved (the lack of QA on a lot of content and patch releases, and terrible dev to community communication, the cognitive dissonance in the writing, etc...), the negativity and the quantative amount of it does add to a lot of the difference in the atmosphere.

Just going to add that on the WoW forums, you can get away with a higher level of belligerence, combativeness and aggression there than you can here. As some of my WoW friends have put it, the general population of FFXIV in game and on the forums feels a lot more carebear than that of WoW's.