Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

[JTSpender]

For all the folks who are super-adamant about RDM being a melee/white/black hybrid because that is what it was in various other Final Fantasy games... it's also worth keeping in mind that in most cases Red Mage also ended up being terrible mid/late game in a bunch of those games. There was usually a more advanced class that totally dropped the melee and was white/black magic combo only that totally outclassed Red Mage. :P

For people who *want* a white/black, healing/damaging combo *mage*, there are a whole lot of other awesome Final Fantasy classes/flavors you can pull from. Sage is the obvious choice, but frankly I would <3 at the return of Scholar in some form, because it is *neat*. There's no need to try and force RDM in that role when there are other options for that role, and so many people who would love for RDM to be a real front-line magic fencer.

That said, it's worth keeping in mind that in a lot of the single player FF games (and I guess in FFXI for that matter) there was a big pool of black magic spells, and a big pool of white magic spells, and different classes were grated access to different amounts of spells from those pools. FFXIV is structured a lot differently, and so "here's yet another slightly different combination of those same skills" isn't going to work. Everything is going to need it's own unique, focused skillset. I think the discussion about "would you rather see RDM as a DD or debuffer" makes sense (although it may be too late for that; MNK is already kind of sneaking into the elementalist melee role). And maybe doing something vaguely DNC-ish so they can also off heal a bit would be ok. But trying to do some wonky hybrid thing so they can front line or back line and fill all roles or whatever seems a bit much.

[Ramsey]

For all the folks who are super-adamant about RDM being a melee/white/black hybrid because that is what it was in various other Final Fantasy games... it's also worth keeping in mind that in most cases Red Mage also ended up being terrible mid/late game in a bunch of those games.

This is true, but it's true of a bunch of other jobs. Red Mage never became totally useless, it just didn't excel as much in any one area. Which is nice, which is sort of what I personally want. That said, there's obviously a difficulty with this in an MMO setting, which is why I think a degrading stance system would be a nice way to make Red Mage the jack of all trades that it ought to be.

Cycle through melee, nuking/debuffing and healing/buffing stances, and the longer you stay in one stance, the less effective skills of that type become. Encouraging the player to plug the gaps in a group and then switch to the next task.

[JTSpender]

Cycle through melee, nuking/debuffing and healing/buffing stances, and the longer you stay in one stance, the less effective skills of that type become. Encouraging the player to plug the gaps in a group and then switch to the next task.

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

[Ramsey]

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

This is not unequivocally true, there are examples in MMOs where pure hybrid characters work. It's actually more of a player construct, a preconceived notion that's been perpetuated that they don't work. One of the reasons it's a commonly accepted idea, is that in practice a hybrid class is more difficult to play.

One of the major issues with hybrids playing "plug the hole" is that they can never actually plug the hole with any level of effectiveness, without being broken. If a hybrid can tank as well as a tank, heal as well as a healer, or nuke as well as a nuker, what's the point of any other class?

On the other hand, make them weaker at all of those things, and they can never perform the role well enough to make the difference.

A stance that allows them to temporarily excel at a task, and diminishes over time would solve that problem, though it would require some fine tuning.

Tank's dead? Take over until they're raised and rebuffed. Suddenly a lot of people are at low health? Help out with heals. Anything else? Cycle between magic and melee damage. The reality is it's all about tuning group content so that there's enough flexibility for that class to have a use.

Bringing a Red Mage along, if they had skills like this, would be giving your group flexibility and a safety net, and perhaps losing a fraction of efficiency in a situation where everything goes 100% as planned.

Certainly, this sort of rotating through roles would require a great deal of player skill, but the reality is all classes are not equal in terms of required skill. I don't mind playing a class where people have low expectations due to a general lack of skilled players, as long as I can excel at that class enough to surprise people. Not like there isn't a precedent for classes like this in FFXI.

TL;DR

If you've already decided that it doesn't work, you're not thinking hard enough. Perhaps my solution isn't the answer, but there is an answer.

[Peptaru]

And if you think that making it so they can do everyone else's job just as well by rotating a stance, perhaps you want OP rdm. lol

[Jinko]

Except... this doesn't actually work in an MMO. Nobody is going to invite that to a party. You have to *actually* fill a role. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the power of hybrid characters at being "the right thing at the right time" when everyone else is locked in their role... I play a lot of hybrid characters and I've seen this firsthand. But people still need/expect you to fill a primary role. Being forced out of a role because of diminishing returns is kind of bad and defeats the whole purpose.

This is especially true with a party size of 8, the bigger the party the more roles you can fill so the less need for a hybrid class.

To the person who suggest stances, I kind of like that idea but you shouldn't be able to change stance during combat this will solve some of the issue with players filling all rolls at a switch of a button.

I see no harm in a class that can play all roles, as long as you can't play all roles at once, this is also taking into account gear, materia and stat choices of course.

[Ramsey]

What if we give the red mage... red magic?

Why don´t we break the classic old concept of Red Mage third part WHM, third part BLM , another third part WAR and full part inefficent and unoriginal ?

RDM was anything but inefficient in FFXI. But furthermore, RDM is a third part these things, because that's what Red Mage is. Final Fantasy has an established job system, Red Mage has never varied wildly from its roots in this regard. FFXI was perhaps the biggest departure for the job.

Not to say that innovation is bad, but people expect something specific from a Red Mage, their love and attachment to the job is based around these expectations. Hence this thread, and half the people posting in it.

But last time SE tried to wildly depart from the expected job system... well look what happened.

And if you think that making it so they can do everyone else's job just as well by rotating a stance, perhaps you want OP rdm. lol

Do you not understand the concept of diminishing returns? There are other limitations that could be implemented to ensure balance. It's really not OP at all, in fact, unless they can actually replace a key role permanently, which they wouldn't be able to.

They'd essentially be able to replace a healer with a group that only needs that extra healer slot for a certain part of a fight, or almost doesn't need a second healer, giving them an edge on DPS during the rest of the fight. And they'd be able to replace a DPS in a group that's having trouble with heals, but no trouble with dps, etc.

In an "ideal" raid setup, for players who have already mastered content and are just trying to go faster, RDM would if anything, be underpowered, with the possible exception of raid content where 2 WHM is absolutely necessary for part of the raid, but not the rest. In which case, bringing a RDM instead of 1 of the WHM would allow them to DPS the rest of the instance.

This is especially true with a party size of 8, the bigger the party the more roles you can fill so the less need for a hybrid class.

To the person who suggest stances, I kind of like that idea but you shouldn't be able to change stance during combat this will solve some of the issue with players filling all rolls at a switch of a button.

I see no harm in a class that can play all roles, as long as you can't play all roles at once, this is also taking into account gear, materia and stat choices of course.

Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

Why else would RDM be pointless if it could simply respec to fit a role before a fight? We can already do this, we can already change jobs and gear between fights. Why would I bring a RDM if I can just bring someone who has BLM, WAR and DRG leveled?

Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM?

Having the ability to switch roles in combat, if limited properly, would essentially allow a RDM to smooth over content, by turning one of the party slots into whatever is needed most at the moment. It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.

[Jinko]

Right, because forcing an entire job to drag around 4 sets of unique gear sounds smart. Let's not even discuss itemization of RDM specific gear, or point allotment.

That's why you pick one play style and maximize it, If I play an elemental Shaman in WoW, I'm not expected to drag around gear suitable to melee or healing and nobody forces that on me either.

RDM would be more than pointless given this setup. What you're talking about isn't a true hybrid anymore, but a hybrid in the way that Blizzard likes to define the term. A class that can respec to any role.

And what is wrong with adding choice for different play styles ?

Unless RDM is better than one of those, in which case, why not just bring 8 RDM

For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

Of course SE can't even balance Paladin properly so I guess it's not a such a great idea after all.

It would never be able to outright replace the main tank, main healer, or primary DPS, but it would be able to replace an off tank or off healer in a group transitioning from clearing to farming, or replace a DPS in a group just learning an instance.

With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

Not that it would be entirely useless for other situations, it would just be outclassed by other jobs that can permanently inhabit a single role. But I'd be willing to pay that price for the versatility expected of RDM.

As I said with 8 people the need for a jack of all trades becomes less, and even less when you start talking about alliance content, there is no point taking a class that is average when you can take a class which has a specific role.

You want to melee as RDM but how are the devs supposed to balance this? If RDM wears cloth armor, they die in 2 hits,If RDM wears leather armor, they have no mage stats or are forced into JSE/AF only.

You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

What kind of WS are they supposed to get? If their WS do more than PLD, then PLD will complain about how they have less hate management tools than RDM (getting out-cured and out WSed by a mage). At least then the forums will have something new to complain about I guess.

Why would they complain, the role of a Paladin is meant to be a tank not a damage dealer, I don't see them complaining that they can't compete with DRGs, MNKs and BLMs.

[Ramsey]

RDM = Support

Believe it or not the 11 after Final Fantasy in Final Fantasy 11, is used to indicate that it is the eleventh entry in a series. I.E. there were 10 games before it, and various offshoots, many of which featured Red Mage, and in none of which was Red Mage a support class.

It's a tired saying, but this is not FF11, nor should it be. I loved 11, but this is a different game.

That's why you pick one play style and maximize it.

....? This really doesn't deal with the problem at all. You're making one job that has 3-4 different play styles, which is unfortunately, inherently counter to the current job system.

Nor does this address the other issue, Red Mage would either be inherently weaker than any of those specialized classes at their role, or better, in which case those classes would be useless. In a perfect world, where they're evenly balanced, it's still just a really unappealing approach that runs counter to the design of the job system.

For the same reason you don't take 4 Shamans into an instance or dungeon in WoW, you balance them to be comparable to other classes.

This has more to do with class buffs and debuffs. So unless SE starts implementing that sort of system into the game to force players to take different jobs, this argument is irrelevant.

With the ability to switch classes at any time you can do this anyway.

We're having a reasonable discussion here, and I don't have any sort of idea in my head that my solution is the best one, but try to read it and understand it, because I think you're missing something.

You can't do what I'm describing with the current system. That's why I'm suggesting it, it would give Red Mage a unique role to play, which is the key to the job system.

How is having the ability to play every role unique? It's not, you can already change jobs in the field. (Though you did just suggest a system where Red Mage can swap between roles out of combat.)

The ability to play every role in the course of a single fight is unique.

Currently, you're correct, you could have someone run as a DPS, and swap to heals for boss fights or something. But what I'm describing is a RDM being able to swap roles at specific points within fights. Perhaps your group runs fine on one healer until the boss is at 25%, run with a RDM and let him DPS and switch to heals at the end to help you get through.

RDM's abilities could be built around swapping roles, encouraging them to plug leaks in the raid's efficiency, and never allowing them to take up a single role for long enough to replace that role for an entire fight. Thus requiring at least 1 main tank, 1 main healer, and 1 or more main DPS. (Though I suppose you could do some weird stuff with a few RDM swapping roles in reverse... but that kind of crap is what we live for, isn't it?)

You are seriously overestimating the stat system in this game, some PGL gear for example is cloth.

They have mentioned adding class speicfic gear in the future, leather gear with mage stats could be one such example.

This is true, but more importantly, the class could just have its abilities balanced around a certain set of stats. Unless stat/ability relationships are tied up in some seriously misguided and hardcoded systems, you could simply balance abilities, defensive, offensive, healing, what have you around a certain arrangement of stats.