Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

[Eremor]

Fencer + Theif + Pugilist = Cavalier: solo specialist/psuedo-tank, gets dual wield from THF.

On that note, I've found its pretty hard to get two jobs out of one class.

[Viritess]

Fencer + Theif + Pugilist = Cavalier: solo specialist/psuedo-tank, gets dual wield from THF.

On that note, I've found its pretty hard to get two jobs out of one class.

The main issue i find with getting multiple jobs from one class is that classes are for the most part specialized as is.

Lancer is a DD. It may be able to bring some bonus utility (raise etc) But its still a DD, then DRG is a DD, so whats next? another DD Job.

I think for there to be real quality multi-jobs from Classes they need to slightly reform classes into more jack of many trades.

I've proposed before but i'll keep it short:
Lancer Some tank skills and DD skills and Debuff skills
DRG - DD specialization
??? - Long staff user - Parry Tank specialization.

But closer to topic:

I've posted my suggestion on RDM moving and changing Debuffs into buffs and such. I'd just really like to see RDM play alot of theirs Skills, especially spells, primarily off buffs and debuffs. I'm much less interested in a "Nuker who stabs things too"

Let whatever skill lists they share be the cross class skills of their Direct damage list, but let their real effect and damage originate from debuffs. In the immortal words of Monty Pythons flying circus: "And now for something completely different!"

[Eremor]

I totally agree. As you said the classes are already specialized. Which is why RDM can't ever stem from Gladiator. Gladiator is a tank, and any jobs that come from it will have to be tanks as well, because if they aren't then more then half of Gladiator's skills and traits become completely useless to that job. Some classes have a little more versatility, Marauder for example probably should have been split into a tank job (Warrior) and a DD job (Berserker) rather then making WAR an overpowered DDTank (not quite so bad now).

I also posted my idea for RDM, and I would also very much like to see RDM be a melee-support role job and not focus on DPS (via spells, WS, or otherwise). I always thought in XI that a PLD + RDM combo should have been as effective as a NIN + BRD combo, but sadly RDMs support skills were never even close to the potency of BRD songs. I sincerely hope this time around they can get support jobs right this time. Already a good start since Bard here can also contribute significantly to damage (as can just about any other job) so we can pretty much rest assured that RDM will have at least some kind of decent damage potential of its own.

[Viritess]

Perhaps the simplest way fro them to get around adding a plethera of skills, tweaks and such to each class is to tie perks to the active class/job and/or have Jobs change or replace perks. They'd likely have to go back on the current jobs and do some changes aswell but it may facilitate atleast a heakthier system of options.

I think one of the issues that arised from GLD -> RDM is armor class aswell. Even if you were to change add etc perks to help fit the RDM you would run into the issue of Plated Red mages or 2 extreamly restrictive choices of gear and the added issues of adding lvl 30-50 choices for RDM that are totally different from whats out there, or tagging existing stuff with RDM on it just to get by.

Despite the perk changing thought being helpful short term, i think long term the best route is the previous view of adding additional total roles to classes. Thats not to say a LNC with some tanks stills would stand tow to toe tanking with a GLD, nor should it. But if it has a list of defencive skills where it could perhaps Off tank some adds for a few moment, saving a WHM, or helping out on a xp party etc.

The versatility becomes the "Stuff" a Class can bring in any enviorment, and also opens up a more varied branch of Jobs. Not to mention some fun gearing descisions. Move towards DPS on GLD or Tanking gear wise etc

I agree Bard has been a good test case for support, i think when you move to offencive support like debuffs the water gets murky, and thats kinda what worries me about RDM, if after some time SE just can't see a good way to toss out Debuffs that have an impact while still Melee damaging, they might just settle for a "nuker who stabs things".

And a tear wearing a red hat with a feather will then drop from my eye if that happens.

[Firon]

The main issue i find with getting multiple jobs from one class is that classes are for the most part specialized as is.

Lancer is a DD. It may be able to bring some bonus utility (raise etc) But its still a DD, then DRG is a DD, so whats next? another DD Job.

I think for there to be real quality multi-jobs from Classes they need to slightly reform classes into more jack of many trades.

I've proposed before but i'll keep it short:
Lancer Some tank skills and DD skills and Debuff skills
DRG - DD specialization
??? - Long staff user - Parry Tank specialization.

But closer to topic:

I've posted my suggestion on RDM moving and changing Debuffs into buffs and such. I'd just really like to see RDM play alot of theirs Skills, especially spells, primarily off buffs and debuffs. I'm much less interested in a "Nuker who stabs things too"

Let whatever skill lists they share be the cross class skills of their Direct damage list, but let their real effect and damage originate from debuffs. In the immortal words of Monty Pythons flying circus: "And now for something completely different!"

You can't just look @ jobs as an whole right now tho once Lvl. cap rises more skills will become aval for both sides making them totally different. If they start adding class only skills it will only further separate them. One thing you forgot tho All classes are super hybrids no matter how you look at it. Pgl DD/support. CNJ Healing/DD. MRD. DD/Support. Most casses jobs get rid of the support feel for the class. I Feel like there should be harsher penalty for changing to jobs tho, like WHM int should go to crap making their nuking useless. Same thing for other classes but in different ways.

“It's not a question of can or can't. There are some things in life you just do.” –
Claire “Lightning” Farron

Gawd i love lighting so much Wifu!!!!.

[Duelle]

The main issue i find with getting multiple jobs from one class is that classes are for the most part specialized as is.

Indeed, and that would need to change to accomodate multiple jobs from one class. I touched on this when I proposed a GLA redesign in the GLA forums.

if after some time SE just can't see a good way to toss out Debuffs that have an impact while still Melee damaging, they might just settle for a "nuker who stabs things".

This is not exactly a bad thing. Debuffing as a job/class focus doesn't work very well. You can have nukers that rely on debuffs for damage multipliers (that's aside from how said spells hinder the mob), and the same principle easily applies to melee. If RDM was tuned so that it could do optimal damage with debuffs up, I'd probably be content with the job. Of course, we'd have to limit RDM to instant casts and at the most three debuffs, else the rotation becomes a pain.

[Eremor]

Pretty bored here atm so I'll just go ahead and post my updated Red Mage build. Ultimately I would like to see a fairly unified build that we can put forward and say to SE "Please make Red Mage something like this." Obviously not everyone is going to like any single build but hopefully we can make one that is popular enough for SE to take seriously.

Abilities are presented in a non-standard format simply to make it easier to see how the job would play. Starting with Fencer as the base class.

Weaponskills:

Lunge - Basic rapier attack, accuracy increased from in front of the target.
Spell combo: Slow; combo bonus: Increases the target's spell casting and WS charge times.

Combos to:
Flourish - Inflicts accuracy down; Combo bonus: Increased accuracy down effect.

---

Indirect Lunge - chance to inflict TP bleed from the left or right of the target.
Spell combo: Blind; combo bonus: Inflicts Blind on enemies within area of effect.

Combos to:
Spirit Taker - deals damage to target's MP; Combo bonus: Drain MP.

---

Fletch - a running attack that passes through the target, chance to inflict Bleed when used from in front of the target.
Spell combo: Paralyze; Combo bonus: Inflicts Stun.

Combos to:
Tranche - a disorienting attack that exposes weakness, inflicts Imperil; Combo bonus: Increased Imperil duration.

Combos to:
(Red Mage weaponskill) Spellblade - A powerful elemental attack, element varies with current En-spell; Combo bonus: Increased damage.
Spell Combo: Dispel; Combo bonus: Removes multiple effects.

Spells:

Blind

Slow

Paralyze

Temper - Increases auto-attack damage by a set amount based on enhancement magic potency; Self target (aoe with Sacred Prism).

Barrier - decreases incoming damage by a set amount based on enhancement magic potency; Self target (aoe with Sacred Prism).

(Red Mage spell) Dispel

Abilities:

Enblizzard - adds ice elemental damage to attacks and inflicts evasion down. Consumes MP while active.

Enthunder - adds lightning elemental damage to attacks and inflicts attack down. Consumes MP while active.

(Red Mage ability) Enwater - adds water elemental damage to attacks and inflicts defense down. Consumes MP while active.

Expose - resets the target's resistance to your next enfeebling magic spell.

Composure - evade the next area of effect attack.

(Red Mage ability) Refresh - converts half your current TP into MP for the target.

(Red Mage 15 minute ability) Runic Blade - absorb hostile spells with your sword, nullifying their effect and restoring your MP.

Traits:

Enhanced Physical Accuracy
Enhanced Magic Accuracy, levels I and II
Enhanced Enfeebling Magic Potency, levels I and II
Swift Composure
Enhanced Composure - adds Regen effect while active.
Swift Expose
Enhanced Expose - adds a chance to reset the target's resistance to all enfeebling magic.
Fast Cast, levels I and II - gives you a 15% (20% at level II) chance to cast your next spell instantly.

[AceofRains]

Hi everyone I just wanted to pop in this thread as well and tell you about my job speculation guide. There is a page dedicated to red mage under the scout section. The guide is complete with potential abilities and descriptions that will round out the jobs in a way that matches their role in the armory system. You can find a link in my signature.

Here is a copy paste of most of the contents of the page on red mage. If you would like to know more about scout and how it shoulda be built for this job please look into my guide. There is also a section on Arcanist so you can understand the skills red mage may use from that class as well.

Red Mage – Moderation

“It's not a question of can or can't. There are some things in life you just do.” –
Claire “Lightning” Farron

An interesting combo here is their ability to use the Sacred Prism with Blink, Stoneskin, Cure, or even Haste, although I believe Haste should not function under sacred prism and you will understand why when you read about time mage. On the other end, Red Mages have access to Paradigm Shift which will allow them to throw on AoE debuffs. Using enchant will open up elemental melee damage. Red Mages capitalize on their ability to quickly throw in spells while remaining a close ranged damage dealer. No more shall red mage sit in the backlines with a bare TP pool. As a thread stated on the loadstone “Red Mage: I am not a backline job”
 CNJ + ANT

-Enchant: Consume a crystal shard to enchant your weapon with elemental property.

-Translation: Convert all TP into MP.

-Chainspell: Spells may be casted without casting and recast time. Spells become stronger with each successive cast.

-Delta Strike: Deliver a three part attack that damages HP, MP, and TP.

-Free Cast: Stance that allows for movement and attacking while casting at the cost of TP consumption.

[MicahZerrshia]

OP you nailed it!

Those are some great suggestions for rdm! I always loved my rdm/nin in xi and hated that I had to heal in pts to lvl when there was so much more rdm could do. I would love to see some of these suggestions implemented in the job. True: rdm felt like a whm with refresh pre-aby. And post aby rdm lost nearly all its usefulness as a main job.

Yoshi, you need to pay attn to this post!

[Eremor]

The versatility of the classes stems almost entirely from their optimization for PVP content. As such every DPS class needs some survival abilities and every support class needs some DPS capability. Jobs can of course capitalize on this versatility but not by much, the traits of a class can have a fairly significant impact on what roles it can fill (particularly traits that enhance certain skills, IE Enhanced Outmaneuver) and right now there are no additional job traits nor can we select any cross-class traits.

As for keeping RDM in melee without focusing on DPS, my answer was to tie strong debuffs to their En-spells (so that they have to keep hitting the mob to apply the effect). Actually, my build has gone through some revisions trying to incorporate other ideas and I might repost it (or go back and edit it but it's unlikely anyone would see it as it is buried somewhere in the middle of the thread).