Red Mage: I am not a Back line class

[Ashkandi]

I think you hit the nail on the head with Combos.

If they make RDM combos a WS > Spell > WS or any combination like that, it will instantly solve the FFXI Problem.

I hope and pray every night they don't mess this up..

This makes me think of a BLUE MAGE, which is based on Melee/spells. RDM had "En(Element)" to their swords.. I understand that, but they were meant to be sitting back and casting, they had no amazing melee damage aside from sparkling graphics upon initial cast of an en- spell. Would I like RDM to have Combos, spell/tp based? FUCK YES! But let's be real... You're aiming more towards BLU with that suggestion. What would set RDM different from any other mage class in FFXIV though? MAKE RDM a TANKING CASTER. Yes. Tanking Caster. Too radical? Not really. En(Element) spells to their swords would make sense, depending on what weakness boss/mobs they're facing you could switch between the element wheel. Just because RDM is a caster, doesn't mean they have to have spells whose casting time is 2seconds or higher. Perhaps 1second or less than that.

[Lurex]

As the title says Red Mage is not a back line class I hope it's not when they implement it.

I know a lot of folks who want this class/job, I also know many more people who don't this job to be standing in the back with the white mage casting cure. In XI this class was hit or miss with a lot of folks some quit the class cause they were criticized for melee, thus in turn could play the class the way they wanted.

I have a few idea's that could help stop this from happening in this game as well.

1. Make RDM attack spells cost tp.

2. Make support spells like en-fire and such cost mp but gain more effectiveness when the caster has more than 1k tp.

3. Let Red mage combo into spells. Ex: Poison Thrust > Silence Thrust > Fira(Single target for Red mage).

That's all i could think of for now if you have any other idea's so Red Mage wont get stuck in a back line position like in XI. Please give some feedback, or suggestions.

I really don't want to see this class to feel like an Pure Mage again.

Why are you even dreaming of the far off future? Let's deal with this here and NOW mess.

[Duelle]

Why are you even dreaming of the far off future? Let's deal with this here and NOW mess.

This is one of those situations where we have get our foot in the door now. That way the devs get the idea that maybe they should help RDM live up to concept (largely why I want Fencer implemented) instead of giving the job band-aids like enfeebling magic and refresh.

[Eremor]

Alot of people seem to disagree with what Red Mage is really supposed to be. In an effort to explain the job (and why people think it was ruined by XI) I would like to take a moment to discuss the original Red Mage, circa 1987, with it's humble beginnings as one of the 6 original jobs in Final Fantasy 1.

This original iteration of the job is, in my opinion, the best example of the job out of any of the subsequent games. This is because it is the only version that stands strong on it's own merits alone, where it is not merely a steppingstone on the way to more powerful jobs nor is it a one trick job with doublecast (which was only even considered powerful when combined with stronger abilities from other jobs).

The original Red Mage was nearly as good with a sword as warrior (and all the best weapons in the game were swords) and could use both black and white magic (though their selection was more limited then either black or white mage). Nevertheless it was a valuable asset to the party. However the play style of the Red Mage was never glamorous.

In random encounters the Red Mage was strong enough to kill most monsters in one round with a normal attack with a sword. This was great as it allowed you to easily dispatch attacking groups of 3 in a single round (assuming your 4th character was either a white or black mage) while saving precious MP for when it is most needed (since you could only recover MP at an Inn or with the rare Ether). This was usually the most effective use for Red Mage in these encounters since, even though they had access to some spells that damaged all opponents the damage was usually too weak to kill them in one hit, meaning it would take 2 rounds to kill a group of 6 mobs either way.

In Boss fights a Red Mage greatly enhanced the party's offense and survival. With access to the spells Haste and Temper the Red Mage could more then triple the damage of other characters (or his own but that was less effective since casting the spells takes up your action for the round while another character can attack while receiving the buff in the same round). Red Mage also had access to strong single target healing spells (they were restricted from using the full party heals) so they did well spot healing critically injured party members while a white mage cast heals to keep the rest of the party at full health. This was usually the most effective use of Red Mage during boss fights because usually by the time you finished casting Haste and Temper on two other melee characters either the boss was dead or your party were all injured badly enough to require the additional healing.

This is what Red Mage is supposed to be.

In my opinion the version of Red Mage in FFXI was originally meant to be a faithful reproduction of this original archetype. Unfortunately the more complex mechanics of non-turn-based games are what lead to the downfall of the Red Mage as a job that is useful in and of itself. In XI typically the most efficient way for a Red Mage to deal with a mob that was decent challenge or lower was with a sword, but because of the mechanics of the game mobs that were this weak were rarely worth killing, and all the stronger mobs end up being treated as 'boss' fights meaning the most efficient use of the red mage's skills are in buffing and healing.

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

[Duelle]

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

Hence the different approaches some of us take. I never liked buff-bot/refresh-bot RDM because to me it is demeaning to see a sword&magic hybrid become the buffer because the devs decide to not bother fixing the job (same issue I had with how WoW treated Paladins up until they were fixed in 3.0). Ideally we could have the three disciplines of RDM become play-styles possible depending on how you like to play (that way the guys that like to nuke do so, the guys that like to heal do so, and the guys that like to melee do so), but with the Armory system in place, I instead support Fencer being the parent class to RDM, RDM being focused on melee combat with magic mixed in the form of magic fencing with situational spells to help the group and hinder enemies. Let SCH or BLU or whoever is going to be based off Arcanist be the debuff/buff-bot this time around. All I ask is that such crap is kept away from my favorite job.

[Firon]

Alot of people seem to disagree with what Red Mage is really supposed to be. In an effort to explain the job (and why people think it was ruined by XI) I would like to take a moment to discuss the original Red Mage, circa 1987, with it's humble beginnings as one of the 6 original jobs in Final Fantasy 1.

This original iteration of the job is, in my opinion, the best example of the job out of any of the subsequent games. This is because it is the only version that stands strong on it's own merits alone, where it is not merely a steppingstone on the way to more powerful jobs nor is it a one trick job with doublecast (which was only even considered powerful when combined with stronger abilities from other jobs).

The original Red Mage was nearly as good with a sword as warrior (and all the best weapons in the game were swords) and could use both black and white magic (though their selection was more limited then either black or white mage). Nevertheless it was a valuable asset to the party. However the play style of the Red Mage was never glamorous.

In random encounters the Red Mage was strong enough to kill most monsters in one round with a normal attack with a sword. This was great as it allowed you to easily dispatch attacking groups of 3 in a single round (assuming your 4th character was either a white or black mage) while saving precious MP for when it is most needed (since you could only recover MP at an Inn or with the rare Ether). This was usually the most effective use for Red Mage in these encounters since, even though they had access to some spells that damaged all opponents the damage was usually too weak to kill them in one hit, meaning it would take 2 rounds to kill a group of 6 mobs either way.

In Boss fights a Red Mage greatly enhanced the party's offense and survival. With access to the spells Haste and Temper the Red Mage could more then triple the damage of other characters (or his own but that was less effective since casting the spells takes up your action for the round while another character can attack while receiving the buff in the same round). Red Mage also had access to strong single target healing spells (they were restricted from using the full party heals) so they did well spot healing critically injured party members while a white mage cast heals to keep the rest of the party at full health. This was usually the most effective use of Red Mage during boss fights because usually by the time you finished casting Haste and Temper on two other melee characters either the boss was dead or your party were all injured badly enough to require the additional healing.

This is what Red Mage is supposed to be.

In my opinion the version of Red Mage in FFXI was originally meant to be a faithful reproduction of this original archetype. Unfortunately the more complex mechanics of non-turn-based games are what lead to the downfall of the Red Mage as a job that is useful in and of itself. In XI typically the most efficient way for a Red Mage to deal with a mob that was decent challenge or lower was with a sword, but because of the mechanics of the game mobs that were this weak were rarely worth killing, and all the stronger mobs end up being treated as 'boss' fights meaning the most efficient use of the red mage's skills are in buffing and healing.

Therefore, while I really like the original concept of the Red Mage as a sword wielding generalist mage, the mechanics of any non-turn-based game will render the majority of their skills useless in most situations. We have to take this opportunity to redesign the Red Mage job into one that will be more useful in a real-time, party based environment.

Sorry you wasted your time typing that but you DO Realize both whm and blm could do all of what rdm did right it was never an buffing class class.. you might as well say BLM was a buffer in FF 1 also. RDM is what they describe them in the game "Jack of all trades". If they could make BLU mage an DD. They can make an rdm with Middle ground dps with good buffs.

[Vaymathias]

I'm hoping they go with the Mystic Knight side of the class.

Give it En-Fire, En-Lightning and En-Ice, which would be an MP draining toggle, these spells would turn 100% of their physical damage, so all auto-attacks, weapon skills, and offensive abilities would turn into magical damage of the appropriate element. Each en-spell would also offer different debuffs on the enemy, like en-spell would lower the enemies resistance to fire and lower the enemies attack, while en-ice would lower the enemies resistance to ice and lower the enemies evasion, possibly also grant slow.

They would also get Elemental Blast, that would change element based on what en-spell they were currently using, which would be a PBAOE which would vary based on proximity to the target. They would be able to chain elemental blast off of certain weapon skills.

They would also have "Cure".

Elemental wall would be another one of their abilities, which is a protect like spell, based on the currently used en-spell, that would offer a little big of protection like protect, but not magical damage in general, just resistance to the respective element, it would also be a toggle, draining MP as it's active.

Maybe a self refresh.

Something like that would be fun. It'll be more like the Red Mage from FF1 and less like the refresh/cure bitch with a sword from FFXI

[Koz]

Sorry you wasted your time typing that but you DO Realize both whm and blm could do all of what rdm did right it was never an buffing class class.. you might as well say BLM was a buffer in FF 1 also. RDM is what they describe them in the game "Jack of all trades". If they could make BLU mage an DD. They can make an rdm with Middle ground dps with good buffs.

I may be misunderstanding your response, but I do not believe you are understanding that post.

[Duelle]

I may be misunderstanding your response, but I do not believe you are understanding that post.

What he's getting at is that generalist design doesn't work. It never has.

FFXI reinvented Blue Mage with the hopes that it would shut up the players that wanted Red Mage to be melee-viable instead of, as Vaymathias put so well, "the refresh/cure bitch with a sword". I'm just hoping SE can get Red Mage right this time around and save us from that fate.

[SwordCoheir]

Well there are some saving graces in FFXIV that would help prevent RDM from becoming (at least totally) assimilated into the same role in FFXI. The biggest differences are built into the game mechanics and we don't have to deal with poor skill levels, the power of spells and weaponskills grow with our level so there is actual scaling, and the other big one is all classes/jobs have their own UNIQUE abilities and spells with limited support abilities kills our dependency on spells from other classes, so there is a good solid chance to make something truly good here.