Discussion & Suggestions: What do you think of FFXIV economy?

[ItMe]

Think what you want about me. You're probably dead wrong.

Ironic, because I think you're on point.

[Kes13a]

I am guessing you missed completely the competition aspect in terms of Ishgardian Restoration then

bots essentially cleaned up and garnered a majority if not all the "awards" and rankings.

The bottom line is whether its the market or combat/leveling, SE does little if anything to fight cheaters in any way . their token releases of 'bans' without any sense of what servers is more along the lines of patting themselves on the back because there is NO context. for all we know those could be figures from only the JPN servers.

[Prrringles]

...for all we know those could be figures from only the JPN servers.

Or made up entirely

[ItMe]

bots essentially cleaned up and garnered a majority if not all the "awards" and rankings.

Can you support this claim in any way?

[ShaliaK]

It would be fine if not for the rampant botting on the market board. Square enix needs to do something about it, or at least let us know they're aware and trying... even if at the very least, aware of it.

[Jojoya]

I am guessing you missed completely the competition aspect in terms of Ishgardian Restoration then

bots essentially cleaned up and garnered a majority if not all the "awards" and rankings.

Except they didn't. The majority of the awards went to legitimate players who put in the needed effort to earn their rankings. No one is going to deny that there weren't some bots in there but we also saw SE banning accounts for non-RMT bot activity during that ranking period. A few players reported in these forums suspected bots that they had been tracking during the ranking period had been removed from the leaderboards toward the end of the ranking period.

It's really easy to say if someone scored higher than you that they must have been a bot but that doesn't make them a bot. They might have had more time to craft/gather than you did. They might have had a more efficient farming route in Diadem. They might have gotten better ratings on the crafted collectables they submitted.

I look at the scores for 5.3 on Zalera and I'm not seeing any among the crafters that weren't possible to obtain through human effort. You could get 10k points a hour or more, which means the most time even the highest score needed was 130 hours if it was someone who is good at crafting. The gathering scores are really quite low except for one Fisher. Was that one a bot? Could be. Or could have been some good RNG over how ever many hours they spent in there. A lot of the gatherers were putting in 15-18 hour days trying to get their top ranking.

Are you really going to go around and claim almost everyone in the top 12 on Zalera was a bot? If so, that's you being ignorant of what a good crafter/gatherer is capable of doing.

[Dragonkat]

I was speaking of how players react to botting in online games. As long as those bots don't have a significant negative impact on the player, the bots aren't enough to get players to quit. Their simple existence is generally not enough to create that significant impact.

The impact comes when bots block players from completing content

I think I'd like to personally address that last sentence. Let's talk about content. I ground out today my second Dragonsong Tool. I'm starting in on the next phases of gobbie goo. Primary because i'm trying to help a friend by getting enough stats to craft top tier gear for him. Since a full crafter set with overmelds still can't reach that insanely high control cap for exarchic.

But I'd like to ask. What incentive do I have to work my ass off for those tools, why should I work to become one of the top crafters on my server. Why should I try to ply my goods and provide them to players who need it. When all the content I enjoy can be undercut in seconds by a ******* BOT?!

It's not about the gil and the entitled attitude of "if it doesn't hurt me what's the big deal?" while thinking it's about the greed shows just how little you understand the actual problem. Speaking as someone who will gleefully tank a market on purpose because I hate under cutters that much?

It's about content.

And the market is part of that. You talk about bots blocking objectives? I watched today not one, but three different bots not only undercut my sales but undercut each other constantly for hours. I managed to bring the 300K ase rings of crafting on Byrn down to 70K before the three I casually made for a test sold. Which to be blunt I consider a fair price, trying to pay 300K if you aren't a crafter yourself is stupid, (the paradox of needing to craft to make money for items, at which point why by them when you can make them yourself) but that and inflation is a whole other issue.

Regardless I had to sit there and waste a lot of time checking the MB every couple minutes till I finally found the floor these bots were programmed at. So I ask you. How is THAT any different from people jumping up and down in front of a quest objective? It's still automated bull blocking what I'm attempting to do. And yes it ruins my incentive to play the market game when this is the end result.

Just because you can't see a negative happening to you doesn't make it any less of a problem for those of us who would like to make an honest living. Actually try to supply a playerbase in a stable economy not rigged and broken by these bots. And actually enjoy the competition of crafting and market pvp (see above, I have no problem being that girl). And just because it's not a style you like doesn't make it any less valid then the rest of the combat content out there.

[Jojoya]

I think I'd like to personally address that last sentence. Let's talk about content.

Excellent, let's hear how the market bots have blocked your access to content.

snip the rest.

You haven't described how you had access to content blocked. You've only described how you made the choice to pursue one type of content - "gleefully tanking a market" as you put it - over doing other content.

So back over your individual points.

But I'd like to ask. What incentive do I have to work my ass off for those tools

The incentive is that you want the tools. They're not needed to do any crafting in the game, they just ease the process a bit. You can use other tools the game makes available. I know several crafters not bothering to get the Skysteel tools.

why should I work to become one of the top crafters on my server.

What is a top crafter? How do we determine what a top crafter is in a digital environment where all standard crafting comes with a readily obtained mathematical solution and only the RNG of Expert throws some challenge into the mix?

Why should I try to ply my goods and provide them to players who need it

Because you enjoy crafting and because there are other players who need/want what you can make.

When all the content I enjoy can be undercut in seconds by a ******* BOT?!

Any player can undercut you within seconds with the simple serendipity of checking their unsold listings to see if they've been undercut just after you list your items. Compulsive sellers are going to be doing this constantly because that's how they like to play the game - always checking their listings to make sure they're the lowest. You know, just like you are about to describe doing yourself.

It's crazy how often I have to tell people this but you're your own worst enemy if you keep undercutting those who have undercut you (and who then turn around and undercut you again so you have to undercut again ad nauseum). Stop obsessing over being the lowest on the MB. List then walk away and do other things. If your item hasn't sold in whatever the standard sales period is based on sales history, then worry about whether or not you've been undercut. If the item sells 4 times a day, check 6-8 hours later or longer if you're currently outside of peak traffic periods for your world instead of 6-8 minutes later.

It's not about the gil and the entitled attitude of "if it doesn't hurt me what's the big deal?" while thinking it's about the greed shows just how little you understand the actual problem. Speaking as someone who will gleefully tank a market on purpose because I hate under cutters that much?

Oh, please. Of course it's about the gil.

If it wasn't about the gil, you'd be giving away what you've made for free to any random stranger passing by because it's really about you enjoying being one of the top crafters on your world. Right?

But you don't. You list the items on the MB and then complain about how you get undercut on the MB instead because it means you're making less gil. And when you complain about making less, even though what you make is still profit above and beyond what you need, it absolutely is greed at work.

It's about content.

And the market is part of that. You talk about bots blocking objectives? I watched today not one, but three different bots not only undercut my sales but undercut each other constantly for hours.

I never said anything about bots blocking personal objectives you set for yourself. I talked about blocking access to content.

They have not blocked you from crafting items. They have not blocked you from listing those items on the marketboard. They probably haven't even blocked you from selling your items if you would just take a chill pill and stop playing the undercutting game.

It's not up to the game to make certain you achieve your personal objectives. It's up to you to do that.

I managed to bring the 300K ase rings of crafting on Byrn down to 70K before the three I casually made for a test sold. Which to be blunt I consider a fair price,

Being sincere and honest here - good for you. You're right, there's no reason why rings or other gear should be going for such high prices.

Yet others would accuse both of us of being bots for being willing to accept 70k instead of selling at 300k.

Regardless I had to sit there and waste a lot of time checking the MB every couple minutes till I finally found the floor these bots were programmed at. So I ask you. How is THAT any different from people jumping up and down in front of a quest objective? It's still automated bull blocking what I'm attempting to do. And yes it ruins my incentive to play the market game when this is the end result.

Except you didn't have to. You chose to do it. You decided you want to see how low the other seller would go instead of listing your item and walking away to do other things.

Can you understand the difference?

And if you genuinely want prices to be affordable for the players who "need" the items (which they don't, they can get gear from other sources that will work just fine for the content they want to do), why didn't you price the items that low in the first place?

You still haven't offered any evidence the price cutting was automated. Are you familiar with TSM, the auction house add-on in WoW? It's not automation but it makes it very easy for the player to rapidly scan and do price adjustments. Considering the other mods that players have come up with for this game, it wouldn't surprise me if there's an equivalent here. Still technically against ToS but definitely not a bot and within that grey area SE avoids discussing.

But there's also nothing to prevent a player from doing it manually if they desire considering you admit you do it yourself as you try to tank the price to see what the other seller's floor is.

Once again, you start talking about gil despite trying to claim it's not about the gil. If it's not about the gil, you would list and walk away.

That's what I do. I list and walk away. Either my item has sold the next time I go to check my listings or it hasn't. If it hasn't I check to see if the item was sold recently, at what price, and if others are currently undercutting me then I decide if I want to match the lower price (if there is one) or pull the item and sell something else instead.

Just because you can't see a negative happening to you doesn't make it any less of a problem for those of us who would like to make an honest living. Actually try to supply a playerbase in a stable economy not rigged and broken by these bots. And actually enjoy the competition of crafting and market pvp (see above, I have no problem being that girl). And just because it's not a style you like doesn't make it any less valid then the rest of the combat content out there.

I never said bots aren't a negative to the game. I abhor cheaters who aren't willing to earn their rewards through honest effort. I did say you will find there are other players who don't necessarily cheat themselves but do enjoy the lower prices that result from bot activity and so don't see it as a negative.

How are you not making "an honest living"? The honest living in this game is to beat up primals and other villains. We're the Warrior of Light, that's what we do. We even get rewarded with gil when we do it, enough for our basic game needs like repair and teleport fees.

It's the extras we want that require the extra gil. I can't account for how you don't manage to get the extra gil. I don't have a problem getting it. If I spend gil, I usually have it all back, plus a bit more, very quickly.

What have you been unable to buy in this game because you don't enough gil to do it?

As for stable economies, bots are the least of the problems with the game's economy. Unlimited resources, constant fresh gil generation, lack of viable gil sinks to drain some of that fresh gil back out of the economy, lack of price regulations, quick ventures flooding the marketboard with previously rare items, players having differing opinions about how effort should be valued, etc. - those things are what are destablizing the game economy.

Are bots a problem? Yes. There will always be players finding ways to cheat to get what they want.

Is everyone selling items on the MB and being accused of being a bot an actual bot? No. Even if they're rampantly undercutting those who are undercutting their listings, they're still doing it through human effort. You prove it when you describe how you use the same tactics against them (at least I assume you're not botting yourself).

Is it worth getting our panties in a bunch over it? No. You can still enjoy the game even if others are cheating. Ultimately, it is our satisfaction in knowing what we did and how we accomplished it that means something, not how we compare to others.

If you've got reasonable evidence that a seller is a bot (being undercut 1 minute after you list is not evidence), by all means report them to SE with as much detail as you have. I've done it myself.

But cheaters are going to cheat and it's not worth your good mental health to let them get to you.

[Dragonkat]

Word Salad - But cheaters are going to cheat and it's not worth your good mental health to let them get to you.

I could say the same of the multi quoting above. So I'm not going to waste my time with it. Have fun passively accepting your cheating and making excuses for it one moment while saying it's horrible the next. I'll just go back to being a "greedy" crafter while you decide to just ignore things that don't bother you. Since you aren't the one who is being undercut in the space of the seconds. Which makes it oh so easy to just list my stuff and move on. *eyerolls at the sheer cluelessness of this sentiment* Good luck with that.

[Jojoya]

I could say the same of the multi quoting above. So I'm not going to waste my time with it. Have fun passively accepting your cheating and making excuses for it one moment while saying it's horrible the next. I'll just go back to being a "greedy" crafter while you decide to just ignore things that don't bother you. Since you aren't the one who is being undercut in the space of the seconds. Which makes it oh so easy to just list my stuff and move on. *eyerolls at the sheer cluelessness of this sentiment* Good luck with that.

Your choice, just as I've made my choice based on years of experience with cheaters in MMOs.

I wish you luck with your sales.