How many mistakes are too many?

[Nekaru_Infitima]

Keep in mind accidents happen too as has been addressed in other threads. Lag, Latency, Setup issues, Cats, Hand-eye-coordination.
It is not all just skill and rotation. There are many factors in a person messing up.
And if that's how you treat them, then maybe you shouldn't be playing games with other people.
Social means getting along and not beating someone down for unforeseen occurrences.

[ItMe]

Heck no, we believe DF is for learning and PF is for clearing! If I'm accurate I believe the JP community is pretty much on the oppositte with that mentality.

I came from Tonberry a little while ago and can assure you we don't have a hard role for either.
Generally the raid finder is used more when the content is current and abandoned shortly after, but we don't have the idea that one is for X and one is for Y.
They're both used for both.

[LineageRazor]

I've known a lot of people who join pug groups with a "three strike" rule in mind. If the group as a whole does not reach the promised level of progress within three attempts, then they drop out. Who makes the mistakes is irrelevant - in fact, I've had the party organizer disband the party when he, himself, was the one making the mistakes.

[SannaR]

For me it depends on the fight. On how far into the fight the mistakes happen. If there's improvement or not. Normally I've seen after the first two wipes people will ask if people need something explained or a refresher. I want to say after that if no improvement has happened then a total of five wipes tend to end in either a kick or a disband.

[Ayuhra]

My rule is no limit on mistakes, provided the player is making new mistakes every time.

The only time I vote kicked someone was a tank in Brayflox. On the last boss he was pointing the dragon's breath into group and not kiting it away from the pools that healed it. We explained things to him, patiently, and tried several times but he just would not listen. This made it actually impossible to beat the fight. It didn't help that the tank was completely silent the entire time, showing no signs he was reading our advice.

So after seven attempts where we did not progress past the first pool I vote kicked him. So that's my limit.... several rounds of the same mistake in a way that greatly slows down or blocks progress. At that point it becomes unfair to the other players in the group.

[Aurelius2625]

If I am the one JOINING the party: I will give it the three strike rule, if by three attempts we have not gotten to the stated objective: Prog / phase / clear / farm / parse then I leave. I'm not wasting my time.

If I am the one MAKING the party: I check to see who is joining my party. I look them up and see how many times they have cleared the fight in question, and what kind of performance they have had on it. If it is the first fight in a new raid series, I look up last tier's logs to get an idea. If it's an EX fight, I look at past EX fights.

If you have no experience whatsoever in the previous fights, or just have bad experience with low percentiles, I kick you no matter what if it's a clear attempt. If I'm learning a new job then obviously I'm very forgiving because I know I will make mistakes as well.

I have no time for low dps individuals especially on dps jobs, I expect bare minimum for people to be above the 25th percentile, that is clearable for any fight. Anything beneath that and you have literally no clue how to play your job, and need to consider learning how to do your rotation on a dummy for 4 minutes at a time so you are not legit griefing your party.

See too many dance partners on dps jobs that don't deserve it. I literally left a party because the AST was carding the two lower dps jobs, the lower melee and lower ranged, by a LARGE margin of over 8k dps in difference for both the NIN and me, who was on MCH in Shiva doing 19k dps vs the SAM and RDM who were doing 10k dps, which is virtually unclearable. I asked the AST to switch card targets so that we could try to clear, they said they didn't care who got cards.

If they don't care about clearing, I don't. They called me "Absolute garbage" (lol even though I was clearly carrying with the NIN), but honestly I don't give a damn LOL. Don't waste my time.

Mistakes happen, but if there's no improvement and you have no business to be in a late phase or clear group...just get out lol.

[EaMett]

It depends so much on context. Are you progging? is it a farm? how difficult is the content? How penalizing are the mistakes?

Some players fumble a lot durring prog but are incredibly consistent when farming. The opposite is also true. Some players push uptime and make mistakes during fight phases where the consequences of their mistakes are low. Some consistently wipe the party.

And all of this happens within the context of the party's skill level. There's no such thing as not making mistakes, it's all about whether you make more or fewer mistakes than your party average.

Lastly it depends what content you're in. If you're farming an 8mn fight you have more leeway than a 16mn ultimate. If every player makes one mistake a night you're potentially wasting an entire third of your 3h session in the first case and 2/3's of your ultimate night. So technically any savage player that leads to 3 or more wipes per night is a liability. And every ultimate runner that generates 2 or more wipes a night is a liability.
Of course in reality there's more leeway, since wipes don't always occure at the end of a fight, and not all party members will cause wipes at the same rate. But that's generally a good bar to set for yourself.

[RethDaron]

I never kick unless they're intentionally trolling but that is very rare, and I don't play the clear parties listed on the party finder.

I may be in the minority but I like helping people learn their job and fight mechanics. More rewarding than just clearing content faster.

[Raltar]

It really depends on if they own up to their mistakes or ask for advice on how to do a mechanic they screwed up on. If they are silent about it and show no willingness to improve, or are out right hostile? Kick.

[Gemina]

I don't know. Indefinitely?

I am of the mindset that if a player is holding the group back, they need to improve; not get kicked, and they are among 7 other players who can choose to help instead of be quick to dismiss the player. I have encountered very few trolls in relevant high-end duties, and the only way I would kick a player is if they don't care, and are just there to be carried. I have not encountered that, and most players when called out, check out themselves, which is just as frustrating as the same player repeating the same mistakes.