How many mistakes are too many?

[linayar]

How many mistakes is it fair to make before you're genuinely holding the group back and should actually leave.

Are you asking from the perspective of the person making mistakes? If so, then here's what I think:

If that person is willing to learn but is struggling with a fight, leaving doesn't make that person learn and that person will still need to struggle with the fight with another group. So if the party is willing to have that person, then that person should stay rather than simply jump from group to group that may have different ideas on how to do the fight.

If it's from the perspective of the party, then it's up to the party to communicate expectations. If it's a farm party and not a learning party, then there's no reason to put up with the struggling player, but they can simply communicate with that player and allow that person to be more self-aware and leave on their own instead of kicking them right away.

[Liam_Harper]

Cheers, good perspectives here. As expected, it varies with both the player and the type of content but for players who prefer not to spend their time wiping to mistakes, 2-3 mistakes that lead to a death or wipe seems to be a good strike rule. In this case I still wonder is it best to simply leave yourself, to wait for the party to kick you, or to offer to leave. If you simply drop, you might have left a patient group who's now down a player, but if you hang around waiting for a kick you might cause 3 decent players to drop to avoid conflict and now everyone loses out.

If that person is willing to learn but is struggling with a fight, leaving doesn't make that person learn and that person will still need to struggle with the fight with another group. So if the party is willing to have that person, then that person should stay rather than simply jump from group to group that may have different ideas on how to do the fight.

In theory I'd agree. In practice I had to drop my first run in SoS normal and 3 SoS EX practice groups barely into P1, but still cleared it comfortably multiple times within the next few days. It feels bad but I guess maybe the drop/kick is a motivation to do better.
My own issue is that I know mechanics or can pick them up if explained, I know the theory of my class and if I'm on form I push reasonable (but not amazing) damage. But the first runs are always rough and some days I just brain-derp. Like when I tried AST in e5s recently, I forgot orbs twice and died even though I know that fight inside out and DF in e8s was my bane for weeks for no reason.

From a party perspective, I feel off days happen. I think stressing over mistakes too much leads to a crash in performance anyway and if I lead a group I prefer it's chill. I'm usually in groups for the social experience and as long as people are trying, open to advice and not trolling that's all I'd ask. But that's not a playstyle I'd force on others or expect them to share. So I like to be open to all perspectives.

[linayar]

In theory I'd agree. In practice I had to drop my first run in SoS normal and 3 SoS EX practice groups barely into P1, but still cleared it comfortably multiple times within the next few days. It feels bad but I guess maybe the drop/kick is a motivation to do better.
My own issue is that I know mechanics or can pick them up if explained, I know the theory of my class and if I'm on form I push reasonable (but not amazing) damage. But the first runs are always rough and some days I just brain-derp. Like when I tried AST in e5s recently, I forgot orbs twice and died even though I know that fight inside out and DF in e8s was my bane for weeks for no reason.

I'm not sure if that has to do with the drop/kick or because it's just another day. People have off days and anytime you join a random group, all the randomness for each person in the group plays a factor.

From a party perspective, I feel off days happen. I think stressing over mistakes too much leads to a crash in performance anyway and if I lead a group I prefer it's chill. I'm usually in groups for the social experience and as long as people are trying, open to advice and not trolling that's all I'd ask. But that's not a playstyle I'd force on others or expect them to share. So I like to be open to all perspectives.

Sure, and again, it's up to the party to give out and enforce "reasonable" expectations. But as long as people do not have any misgivings about the current group, then it's not wrong to continue.