How many mistakes are too many?

[KageTokage]

It really depends on the mistake.

If someone repeatedly screws up a crucial mechanic that wipes the entire party when handled poorly, I tend to more readily be in favor of removing them.

Mistakes that only kill the one messing up are whatever unless it's causing us to hit the enrage repeatedly.

[Angelov-Mercy]

I never liked being asked in private if we should kick someone, it should be laid out to them openly who and why. After messing up a 3rd time the same mistake, it's not just a mistake, go over it with them and ask if they feel they are up to the task. After the 5th time with the same mistake, It might be best if they drop out for the time being, but if they feel they still want to try, I myself would be willing to give them time to work things out, but ultimately it would be the decision of the group if they wish to offer the time to help teach their teammate. Not pushing guilt to ether side as I know people only have so much time to game or not the patience for teaching as they have their own goals for their session, but on the other hand, players will have to eventually need to learn the mechanics, somethings might take a bit of time for some. It took me two runs to learn how to fight the giant book monster in library.

If you will hear my 2 cents on it, be open and patient when you can so as to not alienate or frustrate other players, especially if they need to be replaced for a run. Be polite and open about it.

[Ayuhra]

My rule is no limit on mistakes, provided the player is making new mistakes every time.

The only time I vote kicked someone was a tank in Brayflox. On the last boss he was pointing the dragon's breath into group and not kiting it away from the pools that healed it. We explained things to him, patiently, and tried several times but he just would not listen. This made it actually impossible to beat the fight. It didn't help that the tank was completely silent the entire time, showing no signs he was reading our advice.

So after seven attempts where we did not progress past the first pool I vote kicked him. So that's my limit.... several rounds of the same mistake in a way that greatly slows down or blocks progress. At that point it becomes unfair to the other players in the group.

[Flay_wind]

I do not mind personal mistakes all that much unless they cause several deaths or a wipe.
What i severely dislike is when a party is listed as "last phase practice" or "kill party" or something along those lines in PF and someone joins without clear understanding how to do the very first phase and wastes everyone's time. Those would get a swift kick from me.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

Keep in mind accidents happen too as has been addressed in other threads. Lag, Latency, Setup issues, Cats, Hand-eye-coordination.
It is not all just skill and rotation. There are many factors in a person messing up.
And if that's how you treat them, then maybe you shouldn't be playing games with other people.
Social means getting along and not beating someone down for unforeseen occurrences.

[ItMe]

Heck no, we believe DF is for learning and PF is for clearing! If I'm accurate I believe the JP community is pretty much on the oppositte with that mentality.

I came from Tonberry a little while ago and can assure you we don't have a hard role for either.
Generally the raid finder is used more when the content is current and abandoned shortly after, but we don't have the idea that one is for X and one is for Y.
They're both used for both.

[LineageRazor]

I've known a lot of people who join pug groups with a "three strike" rule in mind. If the group as a whole does not reach the promised level of progress within three attempts, then they drop out. Who makes the mistakes is irrelevant - in fact, I've had the party organizer disband the party when he, himself, was the one making the mistakes.

[SannaR]

For me it depends on the fight. On how far into the fight the mistakes happen. If there's improvement or not. Normally I've seen after the first two wipes people will ask if people need something explained or a refresher. I want to say after that if no improvement has happened then a total of five wipes tend to end in either a kick or a disband.

[Aurelius2625]

If I am the one JOINING the party: I will give it the three strike rule, if by three attempts we have not gotten to the stated objective: Prog / phase / clear / farm / parse then I leave. I'm not wasting my time.

If I am the one MAKING the party: I check to see who is joining my party. I look them up and see how many times they have cleared the fight in question, and what kind of performance they have had on it. If it is the first fight in a new raid series, I look up last tier's logs to get an idea. If it's an EX fight, I look at past EX fights.

If you have no experience whatsoever in the previous fights, or just have bad experience with low percentiles, I kick you no matter what if it's a clear attempt. If I'm learning a new job then obviously I'm very forgiving because I know I will make mistakes as well.

I have no time for low dps individuals especially on dps jobs, I expect bare minimum for people to be above the 25th percentile, that is clearable for any fight. Anything beneath that and you have literally no clue how to play your job, and need to consider learning how to do your rotation on a dummy for 4 minutes at a time so you are not legit griefing your party.

See too many dance partners on dps jobs that don't deserve it. I literally left a party because the AST was carding the two lower dps jobs, the lower melee and lower ranged, by a LARGE margin of over 8k dps in difference for both the NIN and me, who was on MCH in Shiva doing 19k dps vs the SAM and RDM who were doing 10k dps, which is virtually unclearable. I asked the AST to switch card targets so that we could try to clear, they said they didn't care who got cards.

If they don't care about clearing, I don't. They called me "Absolute garbage" (lol even though I was clearly carrying with the NIN), but honestly I don't give a damn LOL. Don't waste my time.

Mistakes happen, but if there's no improvement and you have no business to be in a late phase or clear group...just get out lol.

[EaMett]

It depends so much on context. Are you progging? is it a farm? how difficult is the content? How penalizing are the mistakes?

Some players fumble a lot durring prog but are incredibly consistent when farming. The opposite is also true. Some players push uptime and make mistakes during fight phases where the consequences of their mistakes are low. Some consistently wipe the party.

And all of this happens within the context of the party's skill level. There's no such thing as not making mistakes, it's all about whether you make more or fewer mistakes than your party average.

Lastly it depends what content you're in. If you're farming an 8mn fight you have more leeway than a 16mn ultimate. If every player makes one mistake a night you're potentially wasting an entire third of your 3h session in the first case and 2/3's of your ultimate night. So technically any savage player that leads to 3 or more wipes per night is a liability. And every ultimate runner that generates 2 or more wipes a night is a liability.
Of course in reality there's more leeway, since wipes don't always occure at the end of a fight, and not all party members will cause wipes at the same rate. But that's generally a good bar to set for yourself.