Ishgard Restoration phase 3 feedback thread

[Jojoya]

As people have mentioned, it defeats the purpose of even displaying the scores before the end of the ranking period.

As far as ranking competitions go, this is probably the only instance I've seen where people are allowed to "store" points for the sake of deceiving others into thinking they don't have competition.

It's pretty rare to see competitions that last for 230+ consecutive hours with no limits on attempts.

Displaying the scores still serves the purpose of motivating people if they want to be on top. They know the minimum that will be required to pass the scores displayed but they'll still need to guess about what hasn't been turned in. It means people should be focused on putting in their best possible effort instead of the minimum effort they think will be needed to rank.

Sandbagging is a valid strategy in many competitions. It only becomes a problem here because of storage access. Some players only have access to 2 retainers for 350 additional storage slots. Other players have access to 10 retainers with 1750 storage slots because they pay additional real money every month. If everyone had the same access without paying more money, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Instead of adding some sort of decay system that could be difficult to program and potentially error prone, it would probably be easier to prevent players from storing collectables anywhere but in their immediate inventory (no retainers, no chocobo saddlebag, already unable to store in FC company chests). That way players are forced to turn items in before they can continue crafting. There could still be some sandbagging going on but other competitors could calculate the maximum potential, making it less valuable as a strategy especially since everyone would be able to have the same amount stored.

[DoH]

Outside of the competition, increase scrip rewards and Ishgard Restoration contribution points for Expert so the amount earned per hour is at least comparable to if not better than what you'd get from turning in level 70 or 80 recipe collectables. The difference is so noticeable right now that if you're trying to earn scrip or help your world's progress, Expert is the worst option to pick.

Expert - can reliably craft 25-30 an hour dependent on RNG. At max rating, that's 2,400 scrip and 10,860 Restoration points.

Level 80 - can macro craft 100 an hour. At max rating, that's 6300 scrip and 12,400 Restoration points.

Level 70 - can 2 step (Trained Eye-Groundwork) 360 an hour. At max rating, that's 7920 scrip and 30,960 Restoration points.

That's a good example of why many crafters consider Experts dead. Unless the player wants the Pteranodon mount, the reward for the time investment is less than lower level crafting.

I agree on the having an unattainably high quality/collectability cap (that's was I also promoted on the previous page), but I think the part about crafters considering Expert Recipes dead is unfounded. I don't think that anyone thinks that. A max quality level 80 craft gives only 30 Skyward Points. You can craft these in 10 steps with ilvl 490 gear, but that's still 30 seconds per craft. Assuming 0 seconds going in and out of crafts, that's 2 level 80 crafts per minute, max. That would be 60 points per minute. Even if you did this for 24 hours a day during all 10 days of the competition (which would obviously not be possible unless someone was botting, but for the sake of an example I'm using these extreme numbers), that would still amount to only 864,000 points. That would not be enough to get even 13th place on Tonberry CUL or ALC. It may be enough points to rank on many of the servers, but it is not a difficult score to beat if you try with Expert Recipes, which give 1262 points if max quality; folks were getting upwards of 30,000 Skyward Points per hour with Expert Recipes this season. Also, as Kamome-chan mentioned, the level 70 crafts do not even give any Skyward Points, so it's either level 80 crafts or Expert Recipes. I was able to achieve the highest score on any class on my server (Gilgamesh) this time around and did so with Expert Recipes, and I'm positive that the folks who got higher scores on the other servers were also doing Expert Recipes instead of level 80 crafts (although we may craft a few level 80 crafts to fine-tune our scores to a nice, even number at the end of a day).

Edit: I think I misunderstood what you meant by Restoration Points (I'm not even sure where it tells you what those are). I guess if you really care about your server's progress then yeah, that may be the case, but I think most folks care more about their own achievements and are thus going for the 500k achievement for the "Hand of the Creator" title and, eventually, the 500k DoH+DoL mount. I knocked out most of my 500k DoH achievements between 5.21 and 5.31 and did so with Expert Recipes as it's much faster that way.

[Kamome-chan]

All these people complaining about hoarding -- it's a valid tactic. There's no legitimate reason to have turn-ins expire, this works fine just the way it is. It's your own fault for letting your guard down.

No it's bad because people invest time and effort for the title and get the same title has the guy who got 100 points because people purposely deceive others.

Imagine it is the last day you're rank 12, you have a lot more points than rank 13 and you craft some expert to get even more points until the season ends.

You go to bed and then you wake up the next day, you can't wait to see the score and your name in the saint of the firmament top 12.

Then you are now rank 13 because someone literally came out of nowhere because he tried to deceive you by holding on his crafts.

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

[Jojoya]

How do you get those value tho?
I just tried while max rank level 80 said 124 points I just received 30 points toward my score and the level 70 while said 85 points didn't give me any point.

My guess is a the 124 points/85 points counts towards the restoration gauge (the one unlocking the fate once it's full) and the skyward points is for your personal score.

Also for the ranking instead of reaching a threshold the issue is some people on some worlds won't get the title with 400k while I got it on Spriggan for like a bit more than 4 times less points.

We're getting 3 different "rewards" when we turn in. There's scrip, there's Skyward Points (personal progress), and there are contribution points toward the Restoration (world progress).

The scrip and Skyward points are clearly displayed on Potkin and in our chat logs when we turn a collectable in. The contribution points toward the Restoration are flashed as separate text in the middle of our screen.

The number of items crafted per hour can be easily figured from experience. For the level 80 crafts, the better your gear the shorter the macro needed but someone with the gear to do Expert reliably should be able to create a macro for the level 80 recipes that has about a 30 second run time. Add in a couple seconds for the crafting log window reappear so Synthesis can be started again plus a couple more to turn in at Potkin.

As for being able to get Saint on some worlds easier than others, we're only competing against others on our own home worlds. World choice still comes with advantages and disadvantages depending on whether population is low or high. This is one of the situations where low population can be an advantage because the competitive bar isn't likely to be pushed as high.

I agree on the having an unattainably high quality/collectability cap (that's was I also promoted on the previous page), but I think the part about crafters considering Expert Recipes dead is unfounded. I don't think that anyone thinks that. A max quality level 80 craft gives only 30 Skyward Points. You can craft these in 10 steps with ilvl 490 gear, but that's still 30 seconds per craft. Assuming 0 seconds going in and out of crafts, that's 2 level 80 crafts per minute, max. That would be 60 points per minute. Even if you did this for 24 hours a day during all 10 days of the competition (which would obviously not be possible unless someone was botting, but for the sake of an example I'm using these extreme numbers), that would still amount to only 864,000 points. .

But your Skyward Points only matter if you care about being on top of the leaderboard rankings and/or you're trying to earn the Skyward Point achievements.

If you don't care about those things, or you've already earned the achievements as some players have, Expert may as well be dead. If you're trying to contribute to your world's Restoration progress, Expert is the worst choice. If you're trying to farm scrip to buy things for yourself, your friends, or to sell on the marketboard, Expert is the worst choice.

I'm not pushing for the more exclusive rewards that others have suggested for Expert in past threads, though certainly those would add to Expert's longevity. I just want it to be equally rewarding based on time investment as the other Ishgard recipes in the long term instead of limiting it to the short term when Skyward Points might have relevance depending on your personal goals. The Skyward Points should feel like the bonus reward for being skilled instead of a consolation prize making up for the lack of other rewards.

[Kamome-chan]

snip

Sorry for some reason I mistook world progress for the ranking in your world that makes sense now.

[Ashemmi]

1 - Eliminate the class categories. There are no longer actions unique to any crafting classes so keeping them separate makes no sense. Change rewards to top 100 for Saint and top 1000 for Beatus among all crafters.

Not a bad idea, except for class-based titles, which to some are significant. I use mine, for example, to give firm backing to my roleplay.

2 - Create a single recipe (available in all classes) separate from the other Expert recipes with a very high maximum Collectable rating that should be unattainable (my suggestion would be 50,000 compared to the current 8,240) and using a single unique material similar to the materials we purchase to make collectables for Custom Deliveries.

This turns in to a who has the most control, and in a perfect world averages out so that there are ties. Given a sample of 100, sadly it's a who was luckiest with the most control.

Would it surprise you to know that these crafts were much easier and consistent with higher than "The Balance" suggested craftsmanship? That type of understanding and resource usage wouldn't be an option if we're shooting for the highest possible quality.

Score is the sum of the Collectability rating on the items turned in instead of some random score assignment based on that rating. That encourages crafters to push their CP usage and Durability to maximum effect instead of finishing the craft with CP and Durability to spare. It also discourages abandoning attempts where RNG was bad at the start because even a low rating will add to total score. The number of attempts should offset any very high RNG outliers.

100 simply isn't enough to even out RNG. The rate of getting the top level prize in "Kupo of Fortune", for example is 8%. I have a lifetime score of ~1,000,000 resulting in over 200 attempts at the game. Always picking the option giving the chance at the top tier prize, I've only won 12 times. I should have 16 or more if RNG leveled out. 25% is a pretty big delta.

[tymora]

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

Yep, I will be sore over it for a while...but I accept this as a valid strategy. Annoying but whatever. This is fairly minor compared to other shortcomings.

In general, I think the improvements can largely be split into 3 categories for DoH.

1. Balance out server unfairness
a) Achievements and/or titles by points only
b) Global ranking instead of by server

2. Fix the botting problem or at least make it such that humans can compete with the bots within reasonable limits
a) Limited crafting attempts
b) Daily quotas and caps
c) Proactive, strict policing (e.g. bans, lockouts, challenge questions on randomized UI...etc)


3) Miscellaneous (enhance sportsmanship?)
a) Limit to single competing category
b) Split title and achievements
c) Ranking rewards to not time-limited items/achievements (e.g. Materia, gil...etc)

[JohnSpawnVFX]

No it's bad because people invest time and effort for the title and get the same title has the guy who got 100 points because people purposely deceive others.

Imagine it is the last day you're rank 12, you have a lot more points than rank 13 and you craft some expert to get even more points until the season ends.

You go to bed and then you wake up the next day, you can't wait to see the score and your name in the saint of the firmament top 12.

Then you are now rank 13 because someone literally came out of nowhere because he tried to deceive you by holding on his crafts.

Let's be honest you'd be mad and don't pretend you'd be like that's fine he used a clever strategy all my effort are now for nothing I could have just handed 3 craft and get the same title anyway but that's okay.

The competition ends at a specific time, not when you go to bed at the last day.

This reaches level of "everyone has to go to bed at the same time I do and stop turning in items, otherwise I'll throw a tantrum"

[Jojoya]

Not a bad idea, except for class-based titles, which to some are significant. I use mine, for example, to give firm backing to my roleplay.

The Saint and Beatus titles aren't class specific. This change wouldn't impact the class specific achievements and titles.

This turns in to a who has the most control, and in a perfect world averages out so that there are ties. Given a sample of 100, sadly it's a who was luckiest with the most control.

SE stated that prior to the Restoration's release that Expert recipes and the leaderboards would be designed to favor those who chose to use BIS melds on the crafted gear. Ties would only be likely if players could hit max rating consistently. Increasing max rating from 8,240 to 50,000 should prevent that. It could always be increased to 100,000 instead to make it even less likely.

Would it surprise you to know that these crafts were much easier and consistent with higher than "The Balance" suggested craftsmanship? That type of understanding and resource usage wouldn't be an option if we're shooting for the highest possible quality.

I have no idea what The Balance recommended because I don't belong to their Discord. I played around in Teamcraft to see what progress results I would get as my Craftsmanship increased or decreased then adjusted my melds based on that.

Anything that would make it harder to rely on outside sources to tell a player what to do seems like a good thing in this case. It's supposed to be about personal skill, not following a publicly posted template.

100 simply isn't enough to even out RNG. The rate of getting the top level prize in "Kupo of Fortune", for example is 8%. I have a lifetime score of ~1,000,000 resulting in over 200 attempts at the game. Always picking the option giving the chance at the top tier prize, I've only won 12 times. I should have 16 or more if RNG leveled out. 25% is a pretty big delta.

A perfect system that completely eliminates the impact of RNG will never be possible no matter how many attempts are allowed.

I would say using Kupo of Fortune as a comparison point doesn't work that well because the prize result is intended to have a great variance. As far as I can tell, the conditions for Expert all have an equal chance to proc. I might have a bad string of luck on one attempt but I'll get an extremely good string of luck on another.

The goal is to come up with ideas to improve the ranking competition. There's always room for improvement in any ideas. What would you suggest to improve how the ranking competition works or do you like it as is because time investment ends up being the deciding factor?

[DoH]

I see your point now. I don’t think that most folks really care about Restoration Points or the progress of their server as you don’t have much control over that, but I somewhat agree that it is unfortunate that Expert Recipes are not the most efficient way to farm Skybuilder Scrips or Kupo of Fortune attempts. This doesn’t bother me too much, though, because I already had more Skybuilder Scrips and Kupo of Fortune tickets than I knew what to do with by doing Expert Recipes between 5.21 and 5.31. After getting all the items for myself, I ended up buying random dyes, mounts, etc. and made probably around $100 million gil from selling such rewards and items gathered from Diadem before 5.31. By the end of the most recent ranking season, it was more of a bother to have to spend Skybuilder Scrips and Kupo of Fortune tickets than anything and I only did it because it was equally annoying to click the “yes I’m sure” confirmation button that pops up when you’re maxed out.

As for hoarding, it is honestly dumb not to do it if you’re serious about placing into the top 12. I turned in over 1.3 million Skybuilder Points on the last day that I had accumulated over the 10-day period (I went from 696,969 points to 2,000,001 points), but I tried to keep it “fair” for those who wanted a shot at top 12 by at least being middle of the top 12 on my class for several days before the last day (so that me suddenly jumping places wouldn’t displace someone who would otherwise be in the top 12). I have 10 retainers and spent a lot of time before the competition giving non-market-prohibited items to alts so that I would have enough room to stockpile on 8 of my 10 retainers. I don’t feel bad for the folks that I beat because they could’ve been crafting/turning in or stockpiling just as much stuff themselves. Some did stockpile and turned in a lot on the last day on my class/server, but I had just stockpiled more.