What was up with Ascian Prime? (general ShB spoilers)

[JeanneOrnitier]

After everything we learned in Shadowbringers about the Ascians and Echo, what do you think was the deal with Lahabrea and Igeyorhm fusing back in Heavensward? If I remember right (and I may not) they said it was a power of the Echo, didn't they? And the name "Ascian Prime" implies some kind of real or true Ascian. But neither of those mesh with everything we've learned since then.

[RicaRuin]

Wasn't Ascian Prime looking like the 'true' Form of the Ascians back in 1.0? My guess is that 3.0 still had them unsure about what to do with the Ascians, resulting in... something that doesn't fit with the direction they took later.

[BlitzAceRush]

Back then I thought that Lahabrea and Igeyorhm were of the same soul and their fusion was them using the echo to "cheat" themselves more whole (without need of a calamity) to be stronger so they could beat us, though that quickly was not the case and so now I've no idea, it kind of feels like an Anomaly, though it could be kind of like what Zenos dose with Shinryu just a willing fusion as opposed to a forced one.
Perhaps it really is just supposed to be a fusion ala Dragonball Z, with two separate beings using the Echo to fuse to get stronger, Zenos did say there's so much more to the Echo than just seeing into people's memories, perhaps we'll explore that going forward, Zenos and others have already shown off some cool Echo powers.

[Morningstar1337]

The comparison to the Shinryu thing has me wondering if it was actually a preview of their creation magics? That Lahabrea created an arcane entity that he and Igeyohrm channeled.

Would not only parallel a simialr event in Akademia Ayndyr but also explain the name, as it would be something an Unsundered Ascian (who by definition would be closer to their PRIME then sundered ones) could be capable of.

[JeanneOrnitier]

Wasn't Ascian Prime looking like the 'true' Form of the Ascians back in 1.0? My guess is that 3.0 still had them unsure about what to do with the Ascians, resulting in... something that doesn't fit with the direction they took later.

They were talking about rejoinings even in ARR, so I don't think that's the case. Though we know all the specific details weren't planned out it seems like the basics were.

[Enkidoh]

Wasn't Ascian Prime looking like the 'true' Form of the Ascians back in 1.0? My guess is that 3.0 still had them unsure about what to do with the Ascians, resulting in... something that doesn't fit with the direction they took later.

Not so much 'true' form, but just a wraith like form one showed up briefly as in one 1.0 main story quest, presumedly to terrify the beastmen into summoning their Primals. Lahabrea and Igeyorhm fusing together at the end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility into a similar form was probably just a callback to that, and wasn't really indicative of something much deeper (after all, we've never seen any more Ascians do the same thing since).

[Cilia]

To be fair, it's creation magicks; using them to fuse two souls together (however temporarily) wouldn't be out of the question, especially given Lahabrea was the preeminent researcher of those selfsame magicks.

As for the Ascian Prime itself, I think it was said in an interview somewhere it's closer to their "true forms" (and uses a retooled version of the reaper-like Ascians seen in a 1.x quest). This is... kinda true in the sense it's bigger, but I'm of the mind it was just a way to reuse that old "Reaper Ascian" model. Besides... lore for 5.0 wasn't concrete during 3.0, so like... retcons, and stuff...

[Anonymoose]

To pull a little bit from all of the above:

Back in the Heavensward era, the dev. team confirmed that the reaper was Lahabrea's "true form" - like how you see Hades's true form in Shadowbringers. They all have different "true, current forms" at this point. This did some lifting in making sense of the 1.0 Reaper, which was part of a different story that was headed in a different direction before the Ascians went all Organization XIII in ARR.

Once severed from the original story of 1.0, many of the game's plot devices didn't have new, articulated explanations yet - and these were developed over time. In the Heavensward era, it was a big deal that "breaking down the barriers between souls" was one accurate way to describe the Echo, and Ascian Prime was a - let's be honest - REALLY COOL way to show theory in practice.

Recall that Elidibus (deceptively) implied to Minfilia that truly understanding the Echo would make us "of one mind".

We've come a long way since then, and the game's backstory has gotten much more articulate. The writers and lore team have worked hard together to use old data to inform new ideas and tie it all together to make a tidy big picture. It's not perfect yet, but keep calling attention to the things that might not fit and watch the answers mysteriously show up as plot points in the game, lol.

[Vyrerus]

Iirc even their mask fuses. The attacks it uses in the fight is Fire(Umbral energies) and Ice(Astral Energies) into Universal Manipulation. I think, beyond what's already pointed out, is that it was a use of the Echo in order to derive the true power of an original Ascian. And since we know they were giants relative to races now, a return to original size as well. Of course, the mask fusion hints at fusing identities or Souls, and what could be more intimate for beings from a time period where the Soul is at the core of everything from the creation of home decor to the robes you wear everyday?

Even if it was unintentional, it's one of my favorite tie ins to where they took the Ascians' story, because the signature attack, Universal Manipulation harkens to the powers they gave Zodiark to rewrite the laws of reality. Of course, what the attack actually does is... moderate damage while inflicting every debuff known to man... and a few only known to monkeys. The only way to escape it is by using the rifts that form mid-fight. I think that's sort of what they're going to go with, if they ever answer how the Unsundered escape the Sundering fate.

At the end of the fight they say in their shared voice, "What walls are these? Damn you Hydaelyn!"

[Anonymoose]

If the Echo is, as Emet-Selch said, a shadow of what the Ancients possessed...

Maybe they all could have escaped the Great Sundering if the convocation had pulled the "I am become you and we are become one" trick at the last second...

And were just split from that one entity back into their 14 normal selves...