Thread: 6.0 summoner ideas

Originally Posted by Darsien

Few issues:

1) A 98 drop to 91 is HUGE. 84 uses is 3.3k potency lost. If you're able to parse 98 on savage consistently, 91 is literally painful save for exceptionally bad RNG. Why are you acting like that it's such an amazing feat or something unheard of? Hell, Higabana-less SAM can probably do the same thing. You truly lack perspective.

What on earth are you getting at?
The 98 was the parse it was at the time when it was up loaded, since then enough people have done better than them to push that parse down to 91 (which is only natural, it it the most popular job in the game and the more time passes the more 99s/100s will pop up). This person knows how to play Smn has parsed 99 with them and chose to ignore r3 to see what they could get. TBH once you're bis getting into the 90s is a matter of optimization and Crit RNG given the nature of this game being heavily Vertical Progression focused. So yeah, naturally someone playing with BiS in a non-optimal way would do worse than those who are BiS but playing the optimal way. That's not the point, the point is that someone can straight up ignore the normally most used attack in their rotation to effectively "play like a ranged physical" and have such lil drop off that they still do more DPS than a ranged physical played perfectly. Job is overtuned for clear reasons to me, if it followed the rules that dictate how much damage is allowed for other jobs it wouldn't be played.

Also, a Sam Dot seems like a poor comparison to literally ignoring your most used skill/ spell and replacing it with an insta cast that allows you to move freely and play like a whole different type of DPS.

2) Mobility is a non-issue for all 3 casters in current content. Mobility should never be used as some sort of metric.

Hmm? Blm def has good mobility for what they are but most anyone would agree you're in for a feels-bad if you want to blind prog as Blm. That's not the point though, they're asked to think about when and where they can cast in a fight. SE clearly uses freedom of movement as a metric to balance jobs, this is why Ranged DPS get "ranged tax", the jobs with the lease to worry about when it comes to fight mechanics who can have full up time do the lowest DPS compared to Melees and other jobs that can't run around like Sonic as they go pew pew ... but not Smn, lul.

Of course, you'd know point 2 if YOU PLAYED THE CASTERS. Why are you in a discussion about a job you clearly have not, and I can find no record of you ever have, played? I'm not talking dungeon runs and leveling, where people can mash their keyboard and eventually get through, mind you. Like, honestly? It's like someone going to a book club's final discussions on a novel and talking about the book, but you've only read the synopsis on the back. You just detract and waste everyone's time trying to talk about material you don't know.

lol get over yourself, you don't need to take a job to savage to have an opinion about game design buddy.
It's basic pattern recognition, anyone who follows this game would know how much the devs struggle to make Smn "work".
If you want to actually talk about game and job design then feel free to reply, if you just want to toss a tizzy over someone saying this job is overtuned in an effort to make up for their ongoing struggles to balance it's unique pet system and janky design (which they hate and even I, someone who didn't bother with the job until this expac, could remember times when it worked completely different) then I think it's best if you step back and detach yourself from what your feeling are on a job. Perfectly cool for anyone to like Smn as is ... and I don't think one should need savage parse on the job to comment on it as we can all understand basic job design

And all ruin2 run makes for a fun case study, but is a poor argument if you're trying to frame the job as overtuned (there are still people doing this?) The melee equivalent would be... missing all your positionals on purpose. The dragoon guide from the balance discord calculates this to be a 4% dps loss, which looking at a certain site would drop you from 99th to about 93th percentile, and still far in excess of what the ranged jobs bring to the table.

So, it's a thing for the melees too. The real implication of these anecdotes is that the poor ranged jobs are being taxed too much for the 'privilege' of having no movement considerations. You've sorta come to the right answer, but from the wrong direction.

That aside I'm amused to see some of you guys sticking up for summoner for a change. The relative positions of the 3 caster jobs haven't really changed to me, but maybe they finally nerfed the job enough to placate people this time? I did say though, that the real source of perceived caster imbalance is something more structural and holistic than pure dps concerns. Which means no amount of nerfs will be enough to satisfy some people, even if they can't quite put a finger on the source of their discontent. Considering that summoner is now a mere ~1% above red mage in a dummy situation, I'm sorry to see that I'm right.

Originally Posted by Myon88

And all ruin2 run makes for a fun case study, but is a poor argument if you're trying to frame the job as overtuned (there are still people doing this?) The melee equivalent would be... missing all your positionals on purpose. The dragoon guide from the balance discord calculates this to be a 4% dps loss, which looking at a certain site would drop you from 99th to about 93th percentile, and still far in excess of what the ranged jobs bring to the table.

So, it's a thing for the melees too. The real implication of these anecdotes is that the poor ranged jobs are being taxed too much for the 'privilege' of having no movement considerations. You've sorta come to the right answer, but from the wrong direction.

That aside I'm amused to see some of you guys sticking up for summoner for a change. The relative positions of the 3 caster jobs haven't really changed to me, but maybe they finally nerfed the job enough to placate people this time? I did say though, that the real source of perceived caster imbalance is something more structural and holistic than pure dps concerns. Which means no amount of nerfs will be enough to satisfy some people, even if they can't quite put a finger on the source of their discontent. Considering that summoner is now a mere ~1% above red mage in a dummy situation, I'm sorry to see that I'm right.

Thats actually incongruous.
Because the melee struggle isn't the positionals alone... Its staying in range while doing mechanics, and while getting positionals, and while (in the case of some of them with animation locks and cast time immobility like TCJ) occasionally also being unable to move, and while having to co-operate with the boss's placement. A SMN playing with all instacasts removes the ENTIRE STRUGGLE of its role as a caster. and still outperforms ranged and melee AND ON TOP OF THAT having rez and utilities is very obviously overpowered. Of course there are other intricacies like with summon timing and movement during your trances etc, but those are all comparable in other classes to just not as prevalently (queen, fray, other entities) And of course SAMs high damage is of question right now too, but again removing all aspects of melee constraints from SAM would have a higher impact than SMN ruin.

Regardless comparing such differences is never completely fair cause they are different problems. But melee dropping all positionals, and then dropping a good 8+gcds per fight to never risk uptime would likely be much more commonly in the range of a ranged physical.

You are right tho. The problem is more that ranged physical should be buffed than the top be pulled down. But overall to keep the general difficulty of the game the same you have to both pull down from those on the top and pull up on those at the bottom.

I mostly just want the animations changed to be primal-like. The official SMN art looks like the SMN is pulling Ifrit out to do a quick attack kind of like how they Trance Bahamut's head. I want all the spells to be kind of like this.
Instead of Ruin, when SMN soul is equipped it could turn into a Garuda animation. Ruin II a Ramuh spell. Maybe keep Bio/Miasma for the Rydia reference but have Bane changed to a Leviathan spell (spreading pestilence via water). Tri-Disaster is the perfect candidate for a Magus Sister appearance. So on and so forth.

Would also kind of like it if carbuncle was the only base pet out and behaved more demi-like, using a Glittering Ruby attack each time you attack and had an Assault skill that was like Afflatus Misery with strong DPS to 1 target and reasonable falloff to others. The other assault could be the HP shield but usable with demi-summons out and altered based on which one is out when you use it. Phoenix could add a small HoT for example. Then add one or two more demis (like Alexander and maybe Odin or something) so we almost always have a demi active except for maybe 30s downtime per "rotation" in a fight at level cap.