Maybe we need a Cataclysm

[linayar]

Not necessarily. Take the more recent change of the world being overrun by Nzoth's corruption, for example: that only takes effect after one has encountered Nzoth, in the endgame.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't encounter N'zoth until you get inside the raid. Meanwhile, you can experience the corruption effect, including gears that can corrupt, before you even do the 8.3 starting quest that gets you the cloak. In fact, in the beginning, people in LFR can even go to N'zoth without getting the cloak before Blizzard fixed it eventually.

Now, that particular example doesn't have the presence that the TC was looking for, as it was only ever meant to be a story-immersion component rather than sweeping change, but the same could as easily have occurred for Cataclysm, bringing players through what parts they wanted of the original experience and then reopening the original world through its changes after Deathwing's awakening.

I think they just wanted to redo quests and add flying to the original zones and they used Deathwing as lore reason, so the quests had to reflect that even though they're at low levels. If they didn't tie it to Deathwing, they wouldn't even need the Cataclysm itself and just have Deathwing be another threat without affecting the landscape.

It just depends on the changes one wishes to make and what range they wish to affect. The "sweeping change" could occur at endgame, and yet provide excuse for improvements at endgame and so forth that in turn provide excuse to make general improvements to the leveling experience, all without retroactively touching the game's storylines in any way.

You have to be careful with the part in bold.

For example, you can change the FATE system in this game and tie it to an event that happens at MSQ level 80, but if you do that, it does not make any sense for that change to be experienced by people who have not done that quest. Or, you can just change the FATE system without tying it to any particular event and make its effect felt throughout the whole game.

Anyways, after rereading the OP, I hope that the roulette for tomestones isn't going to change. The point is to give max level players a reason to do old duties and help others queue, so I'm not sure how a calamity is supposed to change that while still helping out the queue.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. You don't encounter N'zoth until you get inside the raid. Meanwhile, you can experience the corruption effect, including gears that can corrupt, before you even do the 8.3 starting quest that gets you the cloak. In fact, in the beginning, people in LFR can even go to N'zoth without getting the cloak before Blizzard fixed it eventually.

I'm referring to the entity in the plot, not just the final boss fight (or trivialized LFR version thereof). My alts have no trouble leveling through Uldum just because that zone is later reused for endgame content.

Nzoth had already spoken to us (literally getting in our heads) well before the 8.3 starting quest. Heck, his name's been tossed around a fair bit since the previous expansion and was a prominent lore figure behind the both the 8.1 and 8.2 raid series. He was even featured in a cinematic before BfA was released.

He's not exactly "an unknown" prior to his fight; he's the central antagonist of the whole expansion, just acting through various other agents until that final boss encounter.

For example, you can change the FATE system in this game and tie it to an event that happens at MSQ level 80, but if you do that, it does not make any sense for that change to be experienced by people who have not done that quest.

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't need 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in each of those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (with the lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

Anyways, after rereading the OP, I hope that the roulette for tomestones isn't going to change. The point is to give max level players a reason to do old duties and help others queue, so I'm not sure how a calamity is supposed to change that while still helping out the queue.

Same, honestly. I mean, I do want to see an actual Expert Roulette at some point, and content upscaling, and a ton of other features to make more efficient use of development time as considered over more than just the latest patch, but the purpose of roulettes is a good one.

[linayar]

I'm referring to the entity in the plot, not just the final boss fight (or trivialized LFR version thereof). My alts have no trouble leveling through Uldum just because that zone is later reused for endgame content.

Nzoth had already spoken to us (literally getting in our heads) well before the 8.3 starting quest. Heck, his name's been tossed around a fair bit since the previous expansion and was a prominent lore figure behind the both the 8.1 and 8.2 raid series. He was even featured in a cinematic before BfA was released.

He's not exactly "an unknown" prior to his fight; he's the central antagonist of the whole expansion, just acting through various other agents until that final boss encounter.

Ok, so I didn't have an alt that could level through Uldum at the time, so I'll take your word on that, and that's good. However, maybe it's because WoW separates level from quest progression, but my alt that was still doing initial BfA zone quests that got to 120 and did world quests got corrupted gear even though corruption was only supposed to happen because of N'zoth being freed, which doesn't even happen until the end of 8.2 with the EP raid. So that's the type of sweeping change that (hopefully) would not happen in FFXIV.

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

In both cases, the change seems separate from any specific event, and that's fine.

To use N'zoth again as an example:

You can develop a corruption-like system and not tie it to N'zoth and make it available on gears at all level (1-120 pre-Shadowlands). But if you make a system and calls it corruption and say it's from N'zoth escaping from prison, then it should not be available to players who have not done the quest to see N'zoth freed, even if they're at level 120.

But WoW is a different game, so corruption is available (at 120, I think). But to go back to FFXIV, I don't think it should happen here. If you want to make a generic change, then just change it.

[Iscah]

It absolutely can. You can build up cooler uses of FATE's central mechanics, allowing for -- for once -- a truly interesting or difficult FATE, and then trickle those interesting mechanics down across all prior FATEs. You don't 'Latest Ascian Boi X' to feature prominently in those FATEs for them to make use of the tech.

Similarly, you can develop, say, more interesting gearing or upgrade/augmentation systems as a central feature for a new raid tier, but still make use of parts of those concepts (lore in no way conflicted) across the game as a whole.

Yes, they can improve game mechanics in a way that that has no impact on the game's lore. That's the opposite of the OP's argument, which seems to be that it's somehow necessary to have a cataclysm calamity to achieve that effect.

If you want gameplay improvements, ask for gameplay improvements. Don't ask to restructure the game zones to achieve that objective, because they aren't linked.

The zones stay as they are because they are set pieces for the MSQ. Whether it's current, whether it's via NG+, those zones need to retain their physical forms so new and old players can share that space.

[RTX3080]

I am going to share a real controversial opinion here, but maybe it would be a good idea to have another cataclysm. There is nothing really wrong with the game and it doesn't need a restart but I feel that something like this could really energize the players and maybe give the development team a chance to work themselves out of some of the very rigid loops they have designed. For instance we have been running roulettes for tomestones to get new gear for 7 years now.

They just need to redesign ARR dungeons and raids to make them more interesting. Even with the ARR streamline it's still really borin

[TroySoFab]

With the way this expansion is ending, I think we are headed towards some kind of world altering event soon. Probably towards endwalker. While I don't think we necessarily need another 'calamity', the same story line can't go on forever. Another giant moon primal or evil towers doing evil tower things could be one way they transition out of this story line and into another.

[Wasselin]

I hope we never stop running roulettes for tomestones. Don't fix what isn't broken.

[van_arn]

As odd as it might seem, I don't think killing the last boss and everyone lived happily ever after is nearly as interesting as the last boss winning and trying to scramble to pick up the pieces in the endgame.

Heavensward had this to an extent; Kefka did this as well. Though it would be an absolutely monumental task that isn't likely to ever happen, I would *love* to see an Eorzean World of Ruin.

That said, I'm glad they dropped a piano on Garlemald offscreen rather than have us go through a reskinned Stormblood. Too bad they missed their chance to offscreen Lyse.

[Ronduwil]

There is nothing really wrong with the game and it doesn't need a restart but I feel that something like this could really energize the players and maybe give the development team a chance to work themselves out of some of the very rigid loops they have designed.

Why fix it if it's not broken? The rigid loops they designed are designed are rigid for a reason. Cataclysm destroyed WoW both in game and IRL. Just take a look at this video and observe what happened to WoW after December 2010, when Cataclysm was released: https://youtu.be/rU19OFZ0vz4?t=173

Spoiler: Within a year it had lost half of its players. Players like roulettes and tomestones. Change for the sake of change is never good. Removing the game's most popular content just to switch things up is a great way to alienate your players and foster hostility.

[Floortank]

Why the focus on tomestone grinding? If you are not grinding tomestones, you will be grinding something, and complaining about that.

The real problem you're detecting, is that the game only has one real output--a boss battle with mechanics that try to foil your rotation. Every bit of content culminates in essentially the same thing.

I happen to enjoy the system, but it is very limited. It will never not be something else. Whatever rewards are attached to that are immaterial. Changing them will not change the complaints.