PL Woes

[Phobos]

I'd just like to mention that this is definitely not the case for everyone you meet, and I think the correlation to PL'ing is a little off base. Some people just don't bother to seek out knowledge in any form and those are typically the people who cannot perform their jobs well. People who don't know how to tap the vast resources available to them from just asking the people they're partying with or browsing the lodestone information sections are most likely going to fail. Any time I don't know something, I'll ask those around me and also do some searches through lodestone and various fan-sites.

I knew plenty of people in XI who had a 75 and were complete morons and couldn't function on the job (pre-SMN/Abyssea burning). In fact, most of these people I knew only had one job capped, and couldn't do it well. I think because these FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult than most, some people end up at max level without really knowing how to perform their job well.

Also, just on the flip-side - One of the people I frequently do runs with in XIV was doing Ifrit 3 days after he started playing. He leveled LNC, unlocked DRG, actually researched the fight, and started making groups for it. This is one of the better players I play with. Time invested in the game does not = skill in the game. Skill = skill; someone who has greater knowledge and experience in other similar games is going to do better than someone who's first MMO is this. Even some people are just horrible... I hate to say that but it's true - some of my FFXI LS's had complete idiots that had been playing the game for years and seemed to be drunk whenever they played (though never really were).

[Peptaru]

That is a good summation of what's wrong with XIV. if "FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult" but you can kill 'endgame' content on your THIRD day.... something got broken somewhere along the line.... cuz that's just stupid fast.

[Phobos]

That is a good summation of what's wrong with XIV. if "FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult" but you can kill 'endgame' content on your THIRD day.... something got broken somewhere along the line.... cuz that's just stupid fast.

Not really - this game has an easy learning curve for people who are used to FFXI, and used to MMO's with action bar systems. The rest is simply knowledge of content, particularly when it comes to ifrit. I'm not saying its not easy, I'm just saying the speed at which someone can get to the point where they can do something does not rely simply on their FFXIV playtime.

[Peptaru]

Not really - this game has an easy learning curve for people who are used to FFXI, and used to MMO's with action bar systems. The rest is simply knowledge of content, particularly when it comes to ifrit. I'm not saying its not easy, I'm just saying the speed at which someone can get to the point where they can do something does not rely simply on their FFXIV playtime.

If you call this an RPG of any kind there is NO WAY you should be doing, let alone making your own groups for, endgame content in three days. That is the issue, not his ability to learn or watch online videos for strategy.

You shouldn't be max level, have all your gear, -100 other things- within THREE DAYS OF STARTING.

[Phobos]

If you call this an RPG of any kind there is NO WAY you should be doing, let alone making your own groups for, endgame content in three days. That is the issue, not his ability to learn or watch online videos for strategy.

You shouldn't be max level, have all your gear, -100 other things- within THREE DAYS OF STARTING.

This is an RPG. I am using the role of my character to play this game.

The only reason the content is accessible to anyone that fresh right now is because gear doesn't matter, skill does. Most of the people posting on forums are of at least moderate intelligence since they've worked out how to log in to an online forum and read information posted there.

Right now, gear doesn't mean anything, and for what it does matter its very easy to get an acceptable level of gear with AF + purchased weapon.

Ifrit is a very difficult fight - when you have 7 other people with you that don't know what they're doing. A tank standing a few feet from the wrong spot, or someone ability locking themselves to death at a crucial point can make a run go sour very fast. The "problem" with the ifrit fight and many others in this game is that the number of runs needed to "cap out" is too massive. Couple this with the odd learning curve (steep to a point, but once you know the fight its a cakewalk) and you have people claiming it's easy. A lot of people fail to see that this was also the case with FFXI, I think it was just less noticeable because there were forced wait times for many events, and with HNM you usually had competition so that added to your excitement level (someone was waiting for you to fail).

Almost every FFXI HNM was boring after your first few fights - the part that kept it "fun" was the competition waiting for you to fail.
If you could spam some of the FFXI events where you get timed out for days, they would have been considered "easy" by the majority of the community in no time.

I'm kind of ranting here but I'm just saying - most of the reason these things are easy is because we have to get so good at them that we finish them fast enough to spam them to actually see some drops. The last time I had fun on Ifrit, for instance, was with a near loss. It's that feeling when it seems like you can't win, or if you lose something bad will happen (in FFXI - you would lose your claim, or precious time in a limited entry event). The problem is these elements are scarce here, because once you pass the rough part of the learning curve, the fights are simple to get through.

EDIT: I will say though - I'm pretty sure he didn't get PL'd and was 50 within 3 days... can't imagine someone who started and got PL'd..

Again though I think right now the game just has such an emphasis on skill instead of gear (as it should) and there are no mile-markers with gear where you need to get to a certain point to be able to do the next harder runs. Sometimes that can be bad, though, and I kind-of like how this game is now... I just wish the content didn't get so stale so fast with so few rewards. By the time you're bored with something you're lucky to have 1 item you want from it

[Xoo]

That is a good summation of what's wrong with XIV. if "FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult" but you can kill 'endgame' content on your THIRD day.... something got broken somewhere along the line.... cuz that's just stupid fast.

This isn't an RPG, Peptaru. This is Street Fighter with timesinks.

[Zumi]

That is a good summation of what's wrong with XIV. if "FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult" but you can kill 'endgame' content on your THIRD day.... something got broken somewhere along the line.... cuz that's just stupid fast.

Other MMO's make it mathematically impossible to kill some of the new end game bosses until you spent a few weeks farming gear to the point where your DPS is high enough to kill whatever it is. For the most part Final Fantasy has never done this. Which is why people can kill stuff on the first day its out. Gear progression does not matter that much in Final Fantasy games.

[Peptaru]

Shin shoryuken never works when i'm on pgl/mnk.... I think my copy of XIV is bugged!

[Peptaru]

Way to try to sound like you're right in your bolded comment at the top, but just no. I play a role in mass effect. I play a role in MvC. I play a role in every game I play. That isn't what makes an RPG an RPG.

As far as referencing XI. Nms/Hnms were hard for about 6 months, then anyone knew how to fight them. Same with sea mobs, sky mobs, etc. I'm not trying to debate this though, but saying RPGs don't put you into endgame in THREE DAYS.

Even staying within the franchise.... How long did the other FF games take? Pick your favorite, it doesn't matter which you choose. Games like morrowwind? EQ? Chrono-trigger? Even NWN and other D&D titles? Hell Diablo feels more like RPG than XIV when i see stuff like that.

There is a devotion of time inherent to RPGs that is a major draw of the genre. It always has been and always should be. It is about, to a vast majority i'm guessing, building and growing your character. Not simply rushing to endgame cuz its the "only fun part" as i've heard said before. I thought PL was awful in XI as it led to less skill among the player base.... now I see the PL from XIV and think "maybe it wasn't so bad in XI".

Repeating the same events over and over in XIV doesn't build ability. It just teaches the people who got PL'd how to do that one particular fight. It doesn't teach much about the overall game or how to play outside those fights.

[Lux_Rayna]

As far as referencing XI. Nms/Hnms were hard for about 6 months, then anyone knew how to fight them. Same with sea mobs, sky mobs, etc. I'm not trying to debate this though, but saying RPGs don't put you into endgame in THREE DAYS.

You're talking about old-school vs new school. There was a time when RPG's were all about the time-sink, but thats not how it works anymore in the 21st century. Every series is streamlining itself to fit more with the mainstream ideal, which is a focus on endgame content, and little focus on the levelling process. That is just how it is right now, an RPG is *not* what an RPG used to be.

All of those games you mentioned? Old as dirt. They are the best rpgs in the last 20 years or so, but they're not making much money anymore. Ppl are playing games like WoW, Skyrim/Oblivion, latest in those weird action rpg hybrids (like Mass Effect, KOTR), where it doesn't really take all that long to reach the end. At all. In fact, the latest generation of games can be sped through within a few days to a week max. No joke. That is just how it is right now. Sure I agree an RPG should be like what it used to be, but you need to accept the fact that the "RPG" has been changed and redefined. Its no longer about the levelling, its about the gear, the bosses, and the raids/dungeons.

Its a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand this has made RPG's a lot more mainstream and a lot more accessible. Because they are so viable now for widespread success, a lot of money is going into them whereas before it was a small niche industry that graced you with a new game once every....few years? Now there's RPG's out every few months it seems like, its quite a change of pace. At the same time RPG lovers from years past have come to find out that while RPG's are enjoying higher popularity and higher budgets, the mechanics are changing severely. As a result, the niche community has been divided between those that embrace the changes and those that hate them.

In the end, RPGs follow the money now...and the money says RPG's are better without the long grind. It sucks but it is what it is. At times I enjoy the focus on post-cap content, rather than the grind part. But there are also times I wish I could enjoy that long and adventurous quest to endgame, filled with lots of parties, dungeons, etc etc. Things change, RPGs are what they used to be and wont be for a long time. Might as well get used to it.