Summoner: An action or a dot?

[Vespar]

I just want to get a feel about this, would people prefer if they revamped Summoner for 6.0 and remove egis and instead just let them summon the primal for one big attack or is having your summon pet at your side all the time make/break the job for you?

No thanks! I abosultely love the way SMN works now. even after the minor nerf we had. I'd rther they just added a new pet class for others to complain about.

[Roda]

I just want to get a feel about this, would people prefer if they revamped Summoner for 6.0 and remove egis and instead just let them summon the primal for one big attack or is having your summon pet at your side all the time make/break the job for you?

No. Absolutely not.
I am playing this class because I like how it plays.
I like dot management, I like pet management, and I love carbuncles to death. I like the class fantasy of fighting alongside my summoned pet instead of having the pet do all the work for me while I just point menacingly at a target.

The only work on SMN that I feel needs to be done is putting resources back into summoning demi summons instead of having so many separate systems not working with eachother and having the actual summoning part of your kit be on timers as if they were bard songs. (that and egi glamours)

I feel like the egis and carbuncles are the most visible part of summoner's identity. Taking that away and just having big-hit-then-gone summons would just make them black mages with books. That said, the base egis could use some help to make them feel less like filler. (Obligatory comment about egi glamours.)

Or maybe the demis could be diversified. For example, instead of all them going through Bahamut and Phoenix, give base egi a different demi evolution. So Ifrit would go from Bahamut to Zurvan; Garuda could go to Phoenix and Sophia; and Titan could go to Alexander and Sephirot. Spitballing here, but just an idea.

I guess this is an opportunity to paste my summoner fan-redesign that i made in a blood-rage after the 6.0 changes and the discourse surrounding them in an attempt to get these "one big hit and then nothing" and the "but I liked how it was" people to come together on a direction for the class. It's not perfect, and I'd like to put current eggi assaults back into the move list for more pet interaction, but I like the over all design of it

[Shougun]

Personally, all of the above. All of it. Make it slap every summoner's trope lol.

So instead of making it unrecognizable from where it is now, keeping a lot of that structure but adding and upgrading things.

Like new ultimate one off spells that are like baby limit breaks, used least often in comparison to demi (one of the longer, hallowed ground like, rotation spells but visually befitting any summoner of any FF game- primals like Alexander or Odin could fit into this). Someone here came up with the idea of calling them Tempus spells, irc. Egi, Demi, Tempus.

More egi options, which to be completly honest I'd much rather see more niche egi than just glamour but I'd rather see glamour than nothing. Such that I don't 'really' want to see ifrit and shiva having no difference, carbuncle and garuda, whatever it's the 'same'.. I don't really like that. I'd prefer the summoner has more unique tools, and I could see a new summoner exclusive UI element that lets you more easily choose egi, and perhaps even demi (like if they add more or modify that mechanic), something that can easily be interacted with yet move-able. Perhaps with the zodiac summons they can make counterpart glamour options, or other summons that don't meet the sterotype of summoning. But like I'd love to see Ramuh, Shiva, Levithan at least becoming actual content over different colors of the same thing. Give them character :3.

I think it'd be important to bring more flavor back to each egi, especially if you're adding more diversity. For example titan should get an hp bar, but for balance reasons it can still be untargetable. Rather he'll have a base amount of hp and 'cover' you like a Paladin might, some hp back on his attacks (meaning trash packs and his aoe/ultimate could be really helpful), and his egi assault being slightly nerfed on hp but added damage for yourself. I think the cover, while similar to his stoneskin like effect he has currently, is better as it provides the image of tanking rather than buffing, and is more consistent / starts from when he is summoned even if you were out of egi assaults- also as he's a tank not a healer lol. The base hp, hp growth mechanics, hp bar, and other skills can provide some of his higher solo utility and vibes of being very tanky back rather than only sometimes sort of tanky (for groups it might be impressive temporarily, until you're out of egi assault and his hp lol, but would be a clear loss of damage, so only sort of a -hero- mode like red mage sometimes raises a load of people, something you don't get to do often). Shiva might do slightly less damage than Ifrit in single and Garuda in AoE, more than titan, but she could occasionally CC trash and acts as a solid middle of the road option- great choice over titan (who is selfish survive-ability), when you're in a group and the tank isn't doing so well (acting like a baby holy spam white mage, quite helpful to smooth things out or if specific monsters would be better to stun than 'tank'). Ramuh being a primal you have to interact with more by using egi assaults smartly with his own existence but being potential to do more AoE damage in big bursts, unlike Garuda's sustained aoe. May also see other characteristics like Garuda increases your movement speed after each egi assault (winds at your back), Ramuh may manipulate some of the standard natures of specific skills to be proc based, things can (and I feel, should) be more than just two egi assaults and that's it. So you really feel each primal breathing into your job, the nature of the primal injecting it's image.

With these new options you might also see a sort of elemental flow that encourages diversity of primals too, like you've used Ifrit recently and after a while you'd get a bonus for calling Shiva or Ramuh (always two options so you can 'think' what would be best)- which could further mix up the niche that each egi has. The switch shouldn't be so often you can't see the majority of that egi's kit, that'd be obnoxious.

With either a certain level, spell, or both, like at 60 you gain a spur (was a skill) like action that enhances the visual vibe of the egi and yourself (like bestial wrath for hunters in WoW)- then your dots and ruins become aspected with that egi's elements. Later if it was a spell it could become permanent (level 90 summoner always using primal aspected spells). This would also apply some of the characteristics of the egi you've active (or demi), in some occasions that means little besides more damage, but for Shiva with her stun mechanic you might see here your own spells can inflict the same sort of debuff (or are working to boost the interactions with Ramuh).

This concept of primal infecting other parts of the job too, at certain levels at least, like your physick heal being influenced by carbuncle into some sort of ruby spell (which could temporaily summon carby just like Dissida Yuna works). Your Resurrection becoming phoenix inspired.

At level 80-90 you're just pure summon, like everything you do is summons. You cure with summons, you raise with summons, you buff with summons, you deal damage inspired by and with summons, you have summon pets, you have summon instant attacks (like classic FF games), heck there could even be an level 100 ultimate skill that removes you from the 'board' temporarily and you control a summon fully (could call it 'demiurge' which would sort of fit I think).

Every 'FF' summoner trope just slapped.

[EdenArchangel]

At the very least could make the DOTs more thematic without huge overhauls.

Bio renamed Egi Bleed 1 and just plain added to Egi Assault 1...
and Bio II now Egi Bleed 2 as an additional effect of the first auto-attack of Bahamut/Phoenix

Would be more fluid since the DOTs are now part of the Egi/Demi rotation.

Tri-Disaster just a visual change... Ifrit/Garuda/Titan appear around and charge the target, refreshing both Egi Bleeds, so functionally the same. Then the name "Tri" would actually make sense.

I know, I'm wild.

[Vahlnir]

I think if they are going to keep egis, then they should be upgraded as new spells to feature bigger and more powerful summons that aren't just egis. Bahamut and Phoenix are great examples of what they could do, but they could make the upgrades permanent instead for egis. However, they could probably still keep Bahamut and Phoenix as glorified CDs. In my opinion, it would make things feel a bit more meaningful since one's egis would be growing up as you level.

[zcrash970]

Realistically, they won't remove the egis. SMN will always have egis.
They're too represented in game to just suddenly be gone. (carbuncle gear, mounts, housing items, etc.)
They move product and earn the company money. (my fiance for example has 4 carbuncle lights, some plush, an earring, a piggy bank, and one of those resetable calendars)

I think the discussion should probably be: if we don't want the carbuncles out as a token summon between the big ones, what other form could / should they take?

There is a way to do it. Make arcanist a healer class that goes into SCH and make Carby a healer pet while making SMN an extra job like rdm.

[ItMe]

Make arcanist a healer class that goes into SCH

SMN and SCH are both tied to ARC in ways they've said their spaghetti code doesn't allow them to separate.

make Carby a healer pet

Are you suggesting that the egi replace the faries? Because SCH lore is all about the faries.

while making SMN an extra job like rdm.

How is RDM an extra job? I don't follow that point.

[MirronTulaxia]

Summoner drastically, drastically needs an overhaul to better fit in with the way it's depicted in the series. I don't expect that to happen, but more focus on the "pet" in general would be nice, or Summons in general. I still stand by a summon and sacrifice for bigger summon as kind of a basic thing myself. Could even tie it into the whole DoT thing.

[He-Saiyan]

MMO in general tend to think pet classes means having a wolf follow you around 24/7. Lost Ark nailed Summoner. Big A$$ foot comes crashing down like a giant was just strolling by leaving a foot pot hole and the enemies in it. It mostly works because Ark is a Isometric mmo.

I was saying in another thread how I wish summons were simply a system any job could strategically use. Again, I know some like their wands or books. It was juts a pipe dream of mine; nothing that will realistically happen.

[SweetPete]

Summoner drastically, drastically needs an overhaul to better fit in with the way it's depicted in the series. I don't expect that to happen, but more focus on the "pet" in general would be nice, or Summons in general. I still stand by a summon and sacrifice for bigger summon as kind of a basic thing myself. Could even tie it into the whole DoT thing.

I agree. Summoner is in a weird place. Is it very strong? Yes it is. Can it output good damage? Yes it can. However, the job is all over the place. There is no synergy with the abilities. Has a ridiculous 2 minute opener. The pet ghosting, pet abilities not going off in time. Just to much. As expansions come and go we are suppose to be stronger. Why do we still have egis when we can summon Demi-primals? Makes absolutely no sense to me. The dots needs to go too. Summoner definitely has an identify crisis going on along with bard. Hopefully in 6.0 SE finally gives most of us what we want. A Demi-primal rotation. Get rid of dots and makes us an actual summoner.