Tales From the Shadows Updated (SPOILERS ABOUND)

[Iscah]

Still not a guarantee! Even assuming she's not mistaken (and she's been mistaken about several things in this plotline), "ancestor" does not necessarily mean an unbroken bloodline is involved. Many societies, upon adopting someone into the family, treat them in every way as a blood relative. That's just picking nits, though - I do agree that there's very likely some blood relation. Even so, after just a few generations, genetic diversity means that a whole lot of Mide's DNA would have had to come from other sources, with only a few bits and pieces passed down from the founder Mide (even if we assume a frankly uncomfortable amount of inbreeding).

It was mentioned early on (I won't go looking for the quote tonight) that it's only a hundred years since Mide's ancestor created the codex, so not long enough to lose track of relations. I'm not sure that sounds right from an overall timeline perspective, but it's what we've got to work with.

Stray thought: what if present-day Mide and Dayan are clones of the "ancestors"? There's weird leftover Allagan tech on the Steppe and the ancestors know that a younger version of themselves need to be born to repeat the time loop. If that works and doesn't technically involve the same matter going around the loop again...?

We can't be SURE, no, but unless specifically told otherwise, we can assume Alexander had a "birth" of some kind, just as other actors in the story do. Alexander's journey to the past may be the first time he was viewed chronologically, but it wasn't when he was created. The offscreen summoning Iscah mentioned is very likely this birth; the Goblins summoned a Primal, just as other beast tribes do (and likely with Ascians teaching them how). Roundrox likely had a large part in shaping where and how the summoning took place, taking cues from the Codex to do so, but in all other ways it was likely a typical summoning. It's probable that, ruthless as they are, the Illuminati probably jumped straight to mass sacrifices to pump up the power of the resulting primal (just as was done for the original "Extreme" trials).

Yeah, this is mostly how I understand it to play out - other than that you seem to be getting your goblins mixed. Roundrox is from the Idyllshire clan and wouldn't have had anything to do with the Illuminati summoning Alexander.

The question of "where it started" is too hard to pin down because it's bootstraps all over the place, but there is no need for Alexander to have existed prior to the earliest parts of the time loop.

As I understand it, chronologically:

1. Alexander appears in the past and drops off Mide and Dayan to found the Hotgo tribe.
2. They live and die and their descendents carry on their work.
3. Three years ago, present-day Mide and Dayan try to summon Alexander out of the aether and instead get time-travelling Alexander from the future.
4. Shortly after the events of Heavensward, the Illuminati summon Alexander - this is the start of its existence in "real time".
5. Alexander runs its simulations, concludes the best course of history is for it to be sealed away, and calculates the events that need to happen to bring this about. Bootstrapping ensues as the earlier parts of that plan "already exist" and have played out chronologically even though from Alexander's perspective, it has not carried out the plan yet.
6. Real time events of the Alexander quest line play out.
7. Alexander is sealed away with Mide and Dayan on board.
8. Current point in time
9. ???
10. Alexander travels to the past to drop off Mide and Dayan (then returns to whatever state it is in as of step 9).

[LineageRazor]

If that works and doesn't technically involve the same matter going around the loop again...?

Well, when talking about living beings, it wouldn't be the same matter even if it was literally the same person spinning around the time loop for infinity (as was the case in my Discworld example). I think it takes something like seven years to replace the majority of cells in the human body. Normally, heart and brain cells are NOT replaced when they die, but if we're talking about a bizarre, never-born-never-die time looper, you can throw such things out the window and speculate whatever you want, since they aren't strictly speaking, even human beings. Since no matter is eternal, the only way such a being could persist for eternity is if EVERY scrap of matter in their body is replaced periodically.

The same goes for DNA. The original strands of DNA would have been broken down and lost once Mide was dead and buried. COPIES of that DNA could live on through her descendants. This does not break the "no eternal matter" rule.

Yeah, this is mostly how I understand it to play out - other than that you seem to be getting your goblins mixed.

Yeah, I meant Quickthinx, definitely got my gobbies mixed up! The leader of the Illuminati is who I meant.