Garlemald and Azys Lla

[Vyrerus]

Re; Thordan and Tiamat, bear in mind that he knew the Empire and the WoL were on his tail, and didn't know if that giant dragon over there (who, it should be noted, he had no reason at all to know about beforehand; Tiamat had no involvement in the Dragonsong War, and has been chained up there since the Allagans still ruled most of the world) would be hostile. Given the trouble that Nidhogg has given Ishgard with one eye for the last thousand years, attacking another giant dragon who still had both eyes while two hostile forces were right behind him would be completely idiotic. He probably figured he could come back for them later, but then we kill him.

He knew the WoL was on his tail, somewhat, but not the Empire. They're after Azys Lla itself, and Mr. Pope-hat Archbishop gets into Azys Lla before they even bomb the Zundu. As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity. If they'd wanted to, they could have mounted an offensive using both eyes and their powers long before we arrived and put Nidhogg to death. They didn't, because it would compromise the legitimacy of their rule and air too much dirt, breaking the faithful and weakening the faith aspect of their primal power.

I can concede he wouldn't have known she was weaker than Nidhogg by some league, but given he and the Heavensward had at least a full week of free reign about Azys Lla as well as guidance from the Ascians, as well as the knowledge that their forebears killed a First Brood great wyrm without any special powers... it's not idiotic at all. The end of Heavensward's plot suffers from having us have to catch up to the villain, and realistically, the villain had no reason to wait on us, other than to maybe see if we could kill the Ascians for them. But that just begs the question, if they didn't think themselves capable of beating the Ascians themselves, then why would they think themselves capable of beating us? /shrug

[TheMightyMollusk]

He knew the WoL was on his tail, somewhat, but not the Empire. They're after Azys Lla itself, and Mr. Pope-hat Archbishop gets into Azys Lla before they even bomb the Zundu.

It's hard to imagine that they wouldn't notice the Gration out there, especially considering that the Empire even beats us into the Aetherochemical Research Facility, where Regula van Hydrus is the first boss.

As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity. If they'd wanted to, they could have mounted an offensive using both eyes and their powers long before we arrived and put Nidhogg to death. They didn't, because it would compromise the legitimacy of their rule and air too much dirt, breaking the faithful and weakening the faith aspect of their primal power.

The plot with the Primal Thordan was recent. It doesn't justify the entirety of a thousand-year war. Nidhogg had also defeated previous Azure Dragoons who tried to use one Eye against him by influencing their minds (see the 30-50 dragoon quests), which was a known problem with them. Bringing both of his Eyes together also proves an extremely terrible idea later with Estinien. Also, the Heavens' Ward were already under primal influence (given that four of them use their primal forms beforehand, in the Vault, it seems clear that they'd already conducted at least a partial summoning), so it's entirely reasonable to assume that they weren't thinking rationally anymore.

I can concede he wouldn't have known she was weaker than Nidhogg by some league, but given he and the Heavensward had at least a full week of free reign about Azys Lla as well as guidance from the Ascians, as well as the knowledge that their forebears killed a First Brood great wyrm without any special powers... it's not idiotic at all.

We don't really have a time scale for how long they were there due to the time bubble, and the Ascians weren't exactly fully cooperative. Both sides were locked in trying to double-cross each other without the other side knowing.

Their ancestors killed Ratatoskr by ambushing her while she already trusted them and had her guard down; no other dragon is gonna fall for that again. And taking Nidhogg's eyes, they had the power of both of Ratatoskr's, and still lost half their number and the first King Thordan in the process, so it was hardly a clean victory.

The end of Heavensward's plot suffers from having us have to catch up to the villain, and realistically, the villain had no reason to wait on us, other than to maybe see if we could kill the Ascians for them. But that just begs the question, if they didn't think themselves capable of beating the Ascians themselves, then why would they think themselves capable of beating us? /shrug

I feel that a lot of it comes from Lahabrea being a cackling loony who loves to ham up the villain role, at least on the Ascian side. As for Thordan, he likely knew that we'd defeated Lahabrea once already and was counting on us to weaken him enough to spring their trap with the primal summoning, while counting on the Ascians to soften us up enough to defeat once Thordan had his fully-powered primal form. He was trying to play his enemies against each other; it just doesn't work out because we're that badass (hence his horrified dying scream of "WHAT ARE YOU?!?!").

[Vyrerus]

The Gration is dummy thicc

Considering the cloud cover up there is dense enough to cloak it such that it is totally obfuscated enough to ambush the Excelsior... it's just as likely that they didn't see it. The Empire beat us to the Research Facility because we suffer from a chronic case of damaged airship... so we had to hoof it to teleporters. They had aerial dropships.

They were all lucid enough to formulate the setup in the Vault, talk Aymeric down with a reasoned, if not old, argument against divulging the truth. Also all lucid enough to have their own wills, such as Grinnaux attempting to try Alphinaud and Tataru for heresy.

We have a solid few days at least. First there's the travel to Gridania and the night spent for Y'shtola to recuperate after being yanked out of the Lifestream. Then there's the time spent traveling to Dravanian Forelands > Hinterlands > Idyllshire. The time spent going to Matoya's, pilfering the Gubal Library, and then the subsequent extra nights for Cid to read, process, and make a concept real for the aetheric ram.

Tiamat doesn't exactly have her guard up, and like I said before, even if she can break out of the restraints there's no telling how easy it would be for her. She is despondent, and I'd say odds are equal that she'd just let them kill her, but even if she did resist, Thordan VII and his Heavens Ward would have the upper hand. Not too mention, when they beat Nidhogg, Haldrath has both of Nidhogg's eyes and keeps them at first. It's not until Nidhogg had Hraesvelgr's eye that he was able to start enacting his will on the ones with his eyes. Tiamat has no such knowledge, and would have no fall back dragon to seek an eye from. Dragons can sense one another, heck, eye users can sense dragons too. Hraesvelgr could sense Tiamat at Azys Lla, and he didn't even drop in to see her. In the days before we pierce the shield, there's also no avenue for Tiamat to leave. Basically, they didn't get them some nearly free eyes cause it wasn't in the script. That's it.

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

[TheMightyMollusk]

They were all lucid enough to formulate the setup in the Vault, talk Aymeric down with a reasoned, if not old, argument against divulging the truth. Also all lucid enough to have their own wills, such as Grinnaux attempting to try Alphinaud and Tataru for heresy.

Back in 2.X (I want to say 2.2, but the ARR patches kinda blur together to me), the sahagin and the Serpent Reavers were lucid enough to set up a crystal-smuggling operation in Thanalan, including infiltrating the Brass Blades, knowing it would be blamed on the Amalj'aa and buy them enough time to collect the crystals needed to summon Leviathan. In 4.1, some of the Resistance troops were tempered by Lakshmi and hid it until she was summoned into the throne room, including smuggling in crystals beforehand to help facilitate it. Tempered people can sometimes act perfectly normal until their goal is in sight. They tend to throw caution to the wind at that point.

We have a solid few days at least. First there's the travel to Gridania and the night spent for Y'shtola to recuperate after being yanked out of the Lifestream. Then there's the time spent traveling to Dravanian Forelands > Hinterlands > Idyllshire. The time spent going to Matoya's, pilfering the Gubal Library, and then the subsequent extra nights for Cid to read, process, and make a concept real for the aetheric ram.

This really just spins back into the problem of the time bubble. We'll never know exactly how long it should've taken because the game doesn't have a concrete timeline for anything past the start of ARR.

Tiamat doesn't exactly have her guard up, and like I said before, even if she can break out of the restraints there's no telling how easy it would be for her. She is despondent, and I'd say odds are equal that she'd just let them kill her, but even if she did resist, Thordan VII and his Heavens Ward would have the upper hand. Not too mention, when they beat Nidhogg, Haldrath has both of Nidhogg's eyes and keeps them at first. It's not until Nidhogg had Hraesvelgr's eye that he was able to start enacting his will on the ones with his eyes. Tiamat has no such knowledge, and would have no fall back dragon to seek an eye from. Dragons can sense one another, heck, eye users can sense dragons too. Hraesvelgr could sense Tiamat at Azys Lla, and he didn't even drop in to see her. In the days before we pierce the shield, there's also no avenue for Tiamat to leave. Basically, they didn't get them some nearly free eyes cause it wasn't in the script. That's it.

This still doesn't answer how Thordan would know any of this. The only ones who seemed to know about Tiamat beforehand were the other dragons, who seem more or less willing to leave her to her self-imposed penance, and the Ascians, who aren't exactly fond of giving any information they don't think will serve their own ends. All that Thordan's group would know is "There's a big dragon over there, it's not coming after us, we've got another goal first." Again, I don't doubt they would've gone for her afterwards (primals seeking more and more aether, assuming that having Nidhogg's eyes plus drawing on the power of the still-sealed Warring Triad, Thordan's general god complex), but they all die before they get a chance.

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

Why would they not assume we'd come after them? We've never failed to find a way through all of the other impossible situations we've come across.

Azys Lla has plenty of other horrors to keep them busy for a while. I doubt they had free reign of anything when there's a new aetherochemical abomination waiting around every corner. It seems safe to assume that they had to fight their way into the Singularity Reactor just like we did, albeit presumably from a different path.

[LineageRazor]

As for Nidhogg giving the Holy See trouble, that was just as much on the Holy See's desire list to reinforce their own control over Ishgard as it was the dragon's tenacity.

No, the MSQ makes it very clear that the war was Nidhogg's to win at any time he pleased. The war lasted for a thousand years, because Nidhogg wished to torture them for as long as possible before finishing them off. While the Holy See DID use the war as a means to secure their legitimacy, the danger and desperation was very real The See was not doing anything to prolong the war for their own benefit, and there's nothing beyond player speculation to indicate that they had.

Well, even if that were so, it basically assumes that Mr. Pope-hat and Lahabreadloaf were operating under the assumption that we'd find a way to pierce Azys Lla's barrier. We did, but as I've said, it's days at the very least until we do that. The key from Bismarck gave them free reign of the entirety of Azys Lla. They could have still played the Ascians while getting what they sought.

If you expand TIME, don't forget to expand DISTANCE, as well. Everything in the game is scaled down for player convenience. Azys Lla, by the same token, is enormous; while Thordan may have had days upon reaching Azys Lla, it very likely took him days just to get up to the Flagship, bypass the Allagan defenses, and access the Singularity Reactor. He didn't have time to sightsee. It's quite unlikely that he knew that Tiamat was there, so unless the Ascians told him about her, he would not have known. (And that's assuming that even the Ascians know about her - they are not omniscient, and it's unlikely that they kept track of each and every atrocity the Allagans committed.)

Additionally, there's a lot more we don't know about dragon eyes than that we do. We know they can be used as a power source. We don't know how EASY it is to use them as a power source. We don't know whether using one dragon's eyes is exactly the same as using another. A thousand years of using Nidhogg's does not mean he wouldn't be starting from square one while using Tiamat's. And that's even assuming Thordan knows how to use the Eyes he has! Use of the Eye of Nidhogg has been the duty of the Azure Dragoons since pretty much day one, and it's unlikely that Thordan has gone through Azure Dragoon training. The Asicans might be the only reason his plan was workable at all. They could probably have instructed Thordan in the use of Tiamat's eyes, as well, but because they did not encourage him to acquire them we can assume they either didn't know about her or felt it would have been time not well spent (whether this is due to typical Ascian overconfidence, or because it really WOULD have been a poor use of time is irrelevant).

I could go on; there's all kinds of potential reasons Thordan did not kill Tiamat, but, the bottom line is that we're once again at a situation similar to that of the "why not just" thread we had a couple weeks ago regarding dealing with the Light Aether the WoL was overcharged by. Players are imaginative. The writers cannot possibly anticipate every idea the players could possibly come up with - and even if they could, few would have the patience to wade through the walls o' text that would be necessary to cover every possible contingency. There comes a point where you have to accept that your clever idea isn't as obvious as you think it is (this is the first time I've seen it brought up, so it's not as though the majority of the playerbase has been scratching their heads thinking about it since Heavensward) - the writers either didn't think of it, or they have inside knowledge that would preclude it but felt that would be too clunky to write into the script, or it's perfectly VALID, but the writers still felt it would be too clunky to work into the script.

And, as imaginitve as you are, the others on this forum are just as imaginitive, and will be able to come up with counters that explain away the idea. And you will imaginatively come up with counter-counterarguments, and things will continue to go back and forth until folks get tired of debating.

Back in the days when I read Marvel Comics, there were often a section where letters from fans would be printed. Occasionally, letters exposing a continuity error would be printed as well - but the editors had a rule about those. If you wanted to see your mail printed, you not only had to talk about the error, but ALSO supply an EXPLANATION that solved it. (Doing so would also award you the prestigious "No-Prize" award - accept no substitutes!) I always saw this as a brilliant move. It's not hard to poke holes in a narrative - it's REALLY not hard at all. For even the most talented of writers, there's likely a reader out there who's even smarter. There's always a bigger fish, after all!

Narratives cannot be expected to be bulletproof; the best you can hope for is that what holes are there are not glaringly obvious holes. The "butcher Tiamat" hole is not one such hole.

[Vyrerus]

Bulletproof Monk

No, the MSQ makes it very clear that Nidhogg wasn't waging a war of destruction, but a war of suffering. He never had the advantage beyond the sheer number of dragons answering his call. Each Arch Bishop perpetuated a lie about his very origins in order to prolong High House authority and papal rule. Without the Dragonsong War raging, they felt their rule unjustified and that they would not be able to conrol the populace. I don't doubt the dragon hordes could have razed Ishgard to the ground, but the papacy could have kill Nidhogg at any time by brandishing the second eye. The very ancestors of the High Houses that we see could have done it themselves, along with Haldrath, once Nidhogg received Hraesvelgr's eye. They chose not to, again, in order to perpetuate their rule and cover up their besmirched honor.

If we expand time and distance, then it expands for the WoL too, and since it is a longer distance at a slower rate of travel until Midgardsormr grants you his wings, then that leaves the WoL even further behind, granting Thordan VII even more leeway to go kill Tiamat. Also, he did not have to bypass the defenses. The key gained from Bismarck that reactivated Azys Lla and made it descend, the same key that allowed the Soleil through the forcefield gave him administrator level access. Thordan VII and the Heavens Ward really got to come and go as they pleased due to that. The only thing up in the air is the particulars of the alternate path they used to go to the Singularity Reactor, where they docked the Soleil, and why they hadn't already enacted their plan.

As for using the Eye, well it's so easy a cave man could do it. It seems to be as simple as holding it up and channeling the aether within it. Estinien does this for the Aetheric Ram. The WoL does it, with no prior DRG training beyond standard DRG, to kill Igeyohrm. There are also three DRGs in the Heavens Ward.

As for writing the death of Tiamat into the plot, it could have been done quite easily, since we were shown earlier that the great wyrms are capable of living without their eyes for a period of time long enough to fly off somewhere else, like Nidhogg did when he beseeched Hraesvelgr for an eye. Just imagine events going the same way, only we get up to Tiamat and she has no eyes, and instead of telling us just of her despondency, but also her impending death that she feels she deserves. It'd even up the stakes, because now instead of just 1 eye, Ascians, and the possibility of gaining immeasurable power from the Warring Triad, Thordan VII has three eyes.

If Thordan VII not killing Tiamat isn't a glaringly obvious hole, then it's at least a glaringly obvious chekhov's gun. That term gets thrown around a lot with FFXIV, but boy-o, do we still have quite a few still mounted on the wall. I assume they left her alive due to not wanting to hamfist in another dragon fight in the middle of the climax's momentum, but also in order to leave themselves crumbs for future storylines without robbing any FFI fans of the future possibility of slaying Tiamat like Sakaguchi intended! /wink

But seriously, often times when a story is new and we are just purely enjoying it we do not question plot holes. I think the trope term is, "fridge logic." You get so caught up in what's happening, you don't think about it until way later after you've cooled your jets. I've ruminated on Tiamat being there and just being there ever since our first and only interaction with her in Heavensward. It isn't really something I got imaginative about, just something that occurred to me on what's my 8th playthrough of this storyline(though it is the first time where I've really taken long hard looks at what's presented). The reason I come to this forum at all is due to the interesting imaginings of the posters here, cause yes, a lot of them have imagination more plentiful than me. That's why this sort of banter is fun.

It's less about poking holes in one of my favorite stories, and more about offering different perception

[TheMightyMollusk]

Nidhogg is a useful pawn because he's too blinded by rage and vengeance to think of anything else, and his Eyes are useful for their stored aether after his spirit departs. Tiamat was useful back in the Allagan age when her grief over the death of Bahamut made her more pliable. Otherwise, the Ascians tend to leave dragons alone. Probably because, as the only biologically immortal race (dragons don't die of age, they just keep getting stronger; the only thing that separates a wyrmling from Midgardsormr is time, albeit a huge gulf of it), they have long enough memories that the Ascians' reliance on fading into myth between Calamities won't work.

[Townowi]

Is it safe then that the current Garlean leadership in Azys Lla would then have no real favor with anyone in the capital? (Or at least not on Regula's level)

Also, how would the 6th have resolved the leadership vacuum? Or was a leadership vacuum the reason why they couldn't even attempt a defection or surrender?