Branching jobs / Advancements

[Kiurai]

Now I know the devs struggled with SMN and SCH split but I feel like that's partially due to the fact that they broke off into radically different roles with playstyles that didn't work due to thier shared beginnings. But, take this hypothetical: if the jobs that branched off were more close in nature (retained the same roles and similar playstyle) do you think it could possible in said situation?

ex. Archer ---> Bard OR Sniper

[RicaRuin]

What even is the point of splitting the job in something that feels and plays similar? Too much resources used for too little of a result. People would complain the jobs feel to similar, like they are doing with healers, no job identity and all that. Just my opinion though.

[Shurrikhan]

Personally, I'd just like to go towards multiple flavors of jobs, this time by not half-assing that system through the likes of Additional or Role Skills and allowing each job greater playstyle diversity through how it can reasonably source thematic, gameplay-affecting traits to and from other jobs.

I don't want to see "two-for-one" deals, exactly, especially where the two jobs are fundamentally different, but I wouldn't mind seeing some experience overlap among any and all jobs to the degree that they may share themes, sources, or capacities among their skills. For instance, alongside the weapon-based actions and traits themselves, you might unlock various further ones by which you can choose, upon sufficient experience, to level up your job.

For instance, as a Paladin I could choose to go deeper into Holy magics (options from which are permitted earlier by having leveled WHM), turning my enemies' attacks against them via Pugilist techs, better using my shield as a paired weapon via Gladiator, natively imbuing my shield with protective magics via Arcanist, or go deeper into natural fortification or Oaths via native Paladin traits (the prior of which is accelerated by the tank role as a whole) etc., etc.

I'd have a limited number of actions and traits, so at a given level my total action and trait count is the same, and the choices themselves are curated for the jobs and levels thereof so as to keep close power levels even if some are obviously better for speedrunning through leveling dungeons and are therefore recommended for what to shoot for next, but you'd at least see progress carried over in a reasonable fashion from the overlapping themes and capacities reached on other jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

What even is the point of splitting the job in something that feels and plays similar? Too much resources used for too little of a result. People would complain the jobs feel to similar, like they are doing with healers, no job identity and all that.

That depends on whether they take the obvious opportunities such splits would present.

For instance, at present a Bard cannot house much fully supportive options because it needs to feel sufficiently strong in light party and solo content. It thus has to be watered down, made more Archer than Bard. It's like you've been given a spectrum by which to near either a pure Archer or pure Bard on a spectrum, but, lacking any choice in the matter, you're stuck 30% from Archer, functionally, with the presence of "Bard" mostly limited to some skill reskins and flavor text.

Allowing choice, and enlarging the playstyle pool each job can source, would allow for jobs to be more diverse, not less, on the whole. Lacking choice, we're already pulled towards the least common denominator, so to speak. From here, the largest available space is towards diversity, even if there may also be a few more options by which a Bard can play like a Gunner, or a Machinist like an Archer, or so forth.

[HeulGDarian]

Well i love that sch and smn are tied, where the ties didnt work was on the balancing and before that the stats allocation. Both of which are resolved issues ,even though a lot of people will still swear that it was bad and should be buried cause yoshi p said that one time years ago that he regretted it. If anything currently ,where the jobs are basically completely different, they are hurt far more than when they were more similar like in stormblood. Smn needs aetherflow back desperately while scholar needs the level 50 dps kit he lost. The strongest point of smn and scholar ,both lore wise and gameplay wise, is or was that they were tied. Nobody was dissatisfied when playing one job cause the other one existed , in fact it introduced people into the healer or dps role cause its easier to leave your comfort zone when its immediately available , curiosity about it will strike in at some point and some did make the swap completely.


That being said No. they shouldnt make more jobs chained together not cause they would be too similiar but because its quite impossible. How would you be able to introduce a job that you had not seen at all through out the campaign as something that was always there and tied to something as common as a class. this is the reason as to why new jobs start at a higher level.

[Kiurai]

I don't like that everyone has written it off because of the SMN/SCH split though, it feels like that's just a botched first try which never stopped them in other forms like Diadem or Eureka

[HeulGDarian]

I don't like that everyone has written it off because of the SMN/SCH split though, it feels like that's just a botched first try which never stopped them in other forms like Diadem or Eureka

Not everyone on the team has given up. Why i say this? well..... ink mage =.=
they cast ruin 3 and broil 2 but when i got hit by broil 2 the name of the spell was Absolute ruin 3, so even jokingly they at least aknowledge that those 2 jobs wont ever break.

[Vidu]

You'd still have to balance all those branches against each other and against the other jobs (and their branches) - that might be the biggest problem, unless the only thing the branches change would be animations and not potencies (which could be an intresting concept, though).

If there is no fundamental change within those branches (and we're not going the "only animations are changing"-route) - aka lets say a Ranger and a Bard would both still be physical ranged dps - I'm not sure if the branches would be worth to add to the balance-headache that the devs obviously already have.
There doesnt seem to be a real shortage of ideas for actual, new jobs floating around either and I dont see a clear benefit for branches over new, proper jobs (maybe that you'd be leveling two jobs at once, like you're doing with SMN/SCH right now? But if both of those jobs fill the same niche, how much did you really win?).

[MariaArvana]

I don't like that everyone has written it off because of the SMN/SCH split though, it feels like that's just a botched first try which never stopped them in other forms like Diadem or Eureka

If you want to know the dev's reason, its because it made SMN/SCH infinitely harder to balance than any other job. By having multiple jobs draw from the same skills from a class, you cause a situation where any changes to those base skills intended to buff/nerf one job will inadvertently affect the other. SCH accidentally got multiple buffs/nerfs through the years because they gave/took away Ruin/Miasma/Bio potency on SMN, to the point they had to start de-coupling them in Stormblood and now in SHB, the two jobs basically have nothing to do with each other in the slightest skill wise and all the ACN skills have been replaced with job-specific actions. (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War on SCH, Ruin 3, Tri-Bind(or whatever its called now), Miasma/Bio 4 on SMN)

Which is honestly the only way this system is truly going to work. And if they have to make the two jobs so de-coupled from each other and the base class to make sure skill changes don't become a nightmare, why bother with the split in the first place and just make it a unique, fleshed out independent job?

Also thematically, SMN/SCH suffered a bit of an identity crisis since they shared so many spells till the de-coupling began. In 2.0 they played almost identically outside of a few OGCDs (Apply dots, use aetherflow stacks on single target damage ability, spam ruin between dot reapplications), 3.0 they still shared multiple core systems but had drifted slightly, it wasn't until 4.0 that they began to drift far from each other and gain identities. I dunno about you, but if I was playing Bard spamming heavy shot, then decided to try out sniper and saw I was spamming heavy shot still, I'd be raising eyebrows.

[Shurrikhan]

If you want to know the dev's reason, its because it made SMN/SCH infinitely harder to balance than any other job.

You realize SCH and SMN can have different potencies for the exact same spell, right? That's not "infinitely" harder. That's the addition of a trait to SMN.