Chemist Kit theorycraft

[Lyth]

Soliloquy.

You manage to make pretty much everything, including your posts, unnecessarily complicated. Let's not introduce two steps for what can be easily implemented in one.

MP is not mandatory to create a healer job. Most important healing happens on oGCDs, which surprise! don't use MP. Why not just build around this for once? The instant you find yourself saying: Potion = Cure, Hi-Potion = Cure 2, you've already failed completely and utterly from a game design standpoint. Please for the love of Thal do something original.

[Shurrikhan]

The instant you find yourself saying: Potion = Cure, Hi-Potion = Cure 2

Cool. 'Cept here's the thing. I've never said that. Nor anything remotely like that. You're strawmanning yet again.

Please for the love of Thal do something original.

So if you want a Mix system that amounts to cycling combos as per MCH, DRG, NIN, SAM, DRK, PLD, WAR, GNB, DNC, and largely MNK and RDM, that's "original", but if I ask for anything more then than that it's "unnecessarily complicated" and thereby unoriginal just because it does not preemptively remove mana from the equation?

That makes about as much sense as potency variance among a job's GCDs being an unnecessary and creativity-squashing convolution. Yes, some way to avoid the need for potency variance while building a halfway functional kit would theoretically exist, but insisting on that gimmick for its own sake isn't going to make the resultant job more unique in its actual gameplay, let alone fleshed out.

[Lyth]

Excessive verbiage.

Notice how none of the jobs that you've mentioned are healers.

Let's have a healer that does damage to do more healing.

[Shurrikhan]

You keep linking the General Discussion forums.

Healing is different. You don't always want a healing effect active. Deciding when you want to proc a combination effect (i.e. AoE, etc.) in relation to fight mechanics results in interesting decisions. We also don't have any actions in game that replenish charges yet.

That's not particularly similar to what is implied by

have the potions combo off each other when you use them. We've done combo-based jobs before, right?

but okay, again, that sounds good. As I said within 5 minutes of my first post on this thread.

I'm merely noting that

1. that combo system (not at all like combo-based jobs we've ever done) takes the same number of sub-mechanics as what you called needlessly complicated (restock + field-combo effects),
2. making it impossible to deal damage without, in your above sample, at least half of casts (depending on how X-potion works in regard to restocking per potion that "activates twice") spent on healing of healing casts over time would stunt the job in virtually all current content, and
3. WHM already has a cross-purpose spell-stocking mechanic via Afflatus Misery and the (Blood) Lily system -- if even just having MP would make Chemist "too WHM", why reiterate on a WHM mechanic specifically?

That inflexibility seems an issue. The rest comes down to preference. I love field-combo effects. Personally, I'd just also like to have a customizable burst CD of some sort and Mix itself (similarly to Mudras) seemed a good place for that. If somehow having a second mechanic is too complicated, though...

[Vyrerus]

Chemist for FF starts in FF5, and given their love of referencing FF in FFXIV, I think they'd reference it over Bravely Default. They'd have to tone down the mix options, obviously, but they could still reference them all while keeping in line with the intended effects of each. As far as FFT Chemist goes, it didn't really add anything revolutionary to the job. Throw Potion had to be there due to the nature of the strategy RPG, otherwise it would have been eclipsed by White Magic. The majority of FFT's chemist was simply unlocking the ability to use each item. That and gun use.

[Seraphor]

As a healer, it's Mix feature should be based on heals, not dps. We all know they want to minimise the focus on dps healers have.
And in case anyone missed my link on the previous page: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...threads/416487

[Lyth]

I find the Mudra system irritating on the best of days. I don't think that Mixing should involve pressing multiple buttons to perform one action.

I'm looking for something that is both intuitive but also has some room for strategic thinking. Throw a potion on someone, give them a HoT effect. Throw a second potion with it active to turn it into some burst healing or an AoE. The 'Mix' involves building off of the buffs/debuffs that you've already placed on players or mobs. With correct planning, you should be able to setup an effect that you can take advantage 10 or 20 seconds down the line.

Remember that the charge system applies to cooldown-based abilities, not GCD spells. Most of the interesting action on healers happens in-between GCDs. I'd like to see a system which acknowledges that fact. So you weave in a healing potion in between whatever filler GCD set you use at baseline. Great. Now you have an extra charge of a damage ability that you can weave in later on as well.

By 'WHM-like', I don't want to see a 2s cast "Potion" which costs 1000 MP. You could expand the existing Lily system into something similar to what I was suggesting, but it would require rebuilding WHM from the ground up.

[Shurrikhan]

I find the Mudra system irritating on the best of days. I don't think that Mixing should involve pressing multiple buttons to perform one action.

That's fair. Ever since the servers moved nearer to me I've found it smooth as butter (especially before moving onto the GCD), but experiences and preferences will obviously vary.

I'm looking for something that is both intuitive but also has some room for strategic thinking. Throw a potion on someone, give them a HoT effect. Throw a second potion with it active to turn it into some burst healing or an AoE.

That's an awesome system. I just got confused by your mention of other combo-based classes. Arguably, they should all act more like that, but since they don't I worried it would just turn into ABCABC spam. Your system easily could end up that way as well if it has too few paths to optimize, but I'd rather not assume the worst. Solid concept.

Remember that the charge system applies to cooldown-based abilities, not GCD spells.

I never assumed otherwise. I'm just worried by how the damage<->healing recharge system would work in typical content.

I feel like there are obvious reasons why WHM's load-up system (be it StB's GCD->oGCD version or the current GCD->Misery version) basically just reduce the cost of healing rather than limiting damage abilities by healing abilities cast or vice versa.

Depending on the details not listed in your sample (e.g. how many seconds of recharge are skipped per "restock"), it feels like in content that requires low healing you're either going to be (1) limited to spamming Gil Toss (and oGCDs used only on their regular CDs), as per a Glare/Malefic/Broil spam healer already, or (2) obliged to just throw out oGCD heals every other GCD regardless of any healing actually required so you can go Healing-Damage-Healing-Damage-Healing-Damage in an apm-bloated cycle (e.g. Bomb-Potion-Bomb-Potion or HWrath-XPot-HWrath-XPot once you've spread vulnerability and DoTs). The latter would have to feel very lackluster per throw not to be ridiculously overpowered over time.

That's largely why MP initially came to mind, as it'd at least apply some limitation to ability cycling or provide a more granular means of allowing for that cycling. Remember, abilities can have MP costs too. That, not any GCD based "Spells" or weaponskills, is where I'd figure CHM would use MP.

Of course, MP doesn't have to be the solution; it could be anything, but right now your sample seems like it has a glaring hole that, frankly, MP could have easily solved (even if not necessarily in the coolest or most unique manner). At present, the restocking feature seems like it's halfway to something great, but is at present a convolution that doesn't seem to meet the intentions you've stated. Given that you've already added that much complexity, I don't see why you'd be unwilling to tap into a further system to make it actually work, or, if such truly would be overcomplicated, reconsider the restocking system entirely.

[Lyth]

...

I think if you want to avoid having players spam an unneeded ability to get to one they want, the restock should only proc from the effect (i.e. use Arctic Wind with immolate active, ends immolate (and the DoT), and gives drenched status + 1 Hi-Potion). There's a good amount of setup that goes into that (Oil -> Bomb -> wait for dot to tick down -> Arctic Wind -> Heavenly Wrath -> Vanish -> Dark Matter).

Alternatively - what if your damage abilities restocked your healing potions, but not vice versa? You might not always be healing, but you will be doing damage even during your downtime. Given that you can go above the recast charge limit through restocking as a trait, you could build up a reservoir of heals even if you're not using them.

[Shurrikhan]

I think if you want to avoid having players spam an unneeded ability to get to one they want, the restock should only proc from the effect (i.e. use Arctic Wind with immolate active, ends immolate (and the DoT), and gives drenched status + 1 Hi-Potion). There's a good amount of setup that goes into that (Oil -> Bomb -> wait for dot to tick down -> Arctic Wind -> Heavenly Wrath -> Vanish -> Dark Matter).

Alternatively - what if your damage abilities restocked your healing potions, but not vice versa? You might not always be healing, but you will be doing damage even during your downtime. Given that you can go above the recast charge limit through restocking as a trait, you could build up a reservoir of heals even if you're not using them.

Edit: I still need to better know what you mean by Vanish Edge's "Targets are vulnerable to item-based non-elemental damage", btw. Did they previously deal no damage? Or is it just basically the old Foe Requiem, reducing resistance by 10% (i.e. increasing non-elemental magic damage taken by 10%)? And since Dark Matter is the only one affected, does this really only matter when you need to spam Dark Matter for AoE, as Dark Matter is already worth maintaining for its Trick Attack effect? Additionally, is the Bravery Potion going to deal more relative potency per animation than the best possible direct damage spam, thus meaning you'd always want to spam DM-Bravery until Immolation, Drenched, and Forked Lightning need to be refreshed?

Let me make sure I'm visualizing the combos correctly.

All damage combos initiate from Oil, right, with some supplementation or extended combos provided by Vanish Edge (unless that's only really for AoE)? Oil -> Bomb (Immolation) [Pot] -> Arctic Wind (Drenched) [Hi-Pot]-> Heavenly Wrath (Forked Lightning) [X-Pot] [-> Dark Matter (with VE first in AoE so it can be spammed for higher damage, otherwise used only for the vulnerability debuff)]. I'd imagine so long as HW's initial damage under Drenched is greater than Bomb's normal initial damage, you'd want to use X-item on it outside of Niho windows, unless of course Dark Matter's damage under Vanish is even higher despite being an AoE???
(In Niho windows, you'd use X-Pot instead, I'd imagine, but the actual playflow would only change insofar as you delay X-item by one oGCD weave so it goes on X-Pot instead, since you wouldn't ever want to waste Oil CD or duration that could be spent cycling the highest potency per animation spam possible, except to refresh Dark Matter.)

Healing combos, on the other hand, initiate off themselves. Potion (AoE Hot) -> Hi-Pot (AoE Convalescence buff) // -> X-pot (Bonus healing).

Even if you made it so you could only Restock on a proper combo, you'd still have unlimited abilities to cast. Heck, unless they're incredibly low-potency, you wouldn't bother casting at all:

You'd just go Oil-Bomb-Pot-Arctic-HIpot-Xitem-Wrath-Bomb-Pot-Wrath-Xpot-Bomb-Pot-Wrath-[DarkMatter-Bravery]-Xpot-Bomb-Pot-Wrath-Xpot... making sure to refresh Immolation just before Oil falls off, Drenched just before Drenched falls off, Forked Lightning just before Forked Lightning falls off, Dark Matter before it falls off, etc., while otherwise just maximizing Wrath casts during Drenched but ensuring Xpot combos so it affords you more Wrath, which in turn forces you to alternate with Bomb-Pot.

If we made it only restock heals, it'd ensure that CHM would probably use GCD heals even less than existing healers, which doesn't sound all that... enviable, even if iconic. Worse, though, all it'd really amount to is Oil at best granting an extra 3 Pots, 2 Hi-Pots, and 1 X-pot per its burst phase. Depending on the potency and natural CD's of each, that'd likely mean Oil would have to be a pretty infrequent CD even then. Additionally, a tight duration on the Oil effect would ensure you don't want to waste any potential ability-casting uptime on mere spells during Oil's duration, thus removing any chance for weaves. If the Oil debuff is consumed on the first Immolate, then that phase would give 1 more of each healing potion, which would be a bit more reasonable and wouldn't feel as rushed; it'd just be kind of like GNB's added apm and ppm via its every other burst phase. Still, that may feel like an unnecessary convolution to some. (You'd be dealing that damage anyways, so why lock the extra 1 of each potion per 30/60/90/whatever number of seconds via a the burst phase you'd want to maximize anyways?)

tl;dr: Are you sure these item abilities need to be oGCD? It seems to cause a ton of problems, given that your only balancing point is basically just the limited windows of opportunities by which to chain combos as long/far as you can. Already this job looks like it'd be basically unplayable on any but the lowest ping, if balanced around its maximum potential. Couldn't we just make most of these abilities into weaponskills or instant casts instead?

Heck, you could throw out Salve completely and just spend casts refilling your Potion inventory if you wanted to go further with that.