Man & Machine: a MCH Thread

[Jirah]

Lotta people here ragging on it for a lack of complexity.
However, that's kind of a "glass half empty" view of it IMO.
I enjoy MCH because its rotation is simple enough that it's actually quite flexible. Regardless of what they do with MCH in the future I hope the flexibility remains.

Jobs that dont improve stagnate, wishing for jobs to continue doing nothing hurts the job. "raging" If u like the job fine but if ur not gonna contribute to the debate without any counterclaims or perspective on ur behhave its best to just ignore the post all together

[ItMe]

Jobs that dont improve stagnate, wishing for jobs to continue doing nothing hurts the job.

When did I ever wish the job wouldn't improve or that it would continue doing nothing?
I was just saying I hope its rotation always remains open enough that its flexible.
I feel like you're straw manning me here.

"raging" If u like the job fine but if ur not gonna contribute to the debate without any counterclaims or perspective on ur behhave its best to just ignore the post all together

My contribution was to try and encourage people to see things from another angle.
Its rotation is simple, yes. But that also means it doesn't get screwed up as easily if the boss becomes untargetable, if there's a weird adds phase like in Shiva Savage, if you start skipping mechanics in unexpected ways, etc.
People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

[Kabooa]

People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

Alright, I'll say it.

I liked Stormblood Mach. I understand it was and still is a ping based job, but I happened to have suitable ping for it and I grew to love it. Stockholm syndrome maybe, but the more I played it the more I liked it.

Shadowbringers really isn't all that different. It more or less plays the same, it's just more rigid in its approach. Played as intended, it's the same loop, but you're not nearly as punished for the minor things.

Wildfire being minimized kind of sucks, but its balanced out by the lack of frustration that came from having 50% critical rate and only critting your Reassembled Clean shot. That's fine, I didn't feel like doing damage. That's somewhat moved to unmodified AA/Drills now, but that's fine. No different than any other job that relies on a high potency dump.

The robot is jank. It needs work. We need the ability to set a target for it somehow, both initially and after.

Wildfire as a 2min cooldown needs some more oomph to it - and it really should have AoE. Having the robot not interact with Wildfire is a giant waste of potential imo.

Flamethrower was never great, but it at least had purpose prior. It doesn't feel good to use even in its best case scenario. With the shift to the gadget focused Machinist, I hope Flamethrower gets adjusted so it doesn't feel awful while being objectively okay for its intended use. Ask me what I'd like and it changes by the day, but it's been mentioned (And today I happen to like the idea) of Flamethrower being a mode swap for the Machinist that puts them close range, changing their primary skill line and their "ammo" skills (Gauss/Ricochet), but a more realistic view is just AoE Air Anchor.

[Jirah]

Ignoring the whole strawmen debate despite many in the forums hoping for it.

all of ur pros boil down to is "its easy" and everything u said can be about any bloody job, MCH isnt the patron saint of hard as hell jobs this is ff14 no jobs are THAT complex to require a job as remedial as MCH. RDM is easy but it has a support back bone, DNC is easy but is support is fun to utilize MCH is easier and has none. The fights is a whole discussion all together as thats not the jobs fault but a easy ranged job that doesnt have to worry about support, positions or MP bars, and have the least amount of skills in the game and none interplay with eachother unlike most Jobs, and its DPS 1-2-3 is the most bare bones, lower than Tanks, thats a issue for a dps that only can dps along with its other issues like Aoes being disconnected, ping, wildfire being token, battery turrets being lateral to MCH besides the resource itself, Turrets targeting issues, and Heat blast being the most mundane process to press it 5 times to optimized everythining (yes u weave ur spam buttons too) and the overheat speed penalization making zero sense.

Jobs are all suffering a purge of thought, astro made simplier, healers made simplier, MCh made simplier, and soon Monk will be lobotomized. disregarding it all as "raging" on forums no less is counter-intuitive and could easily get ur point across by saying "disagree" and moving on

I dont need a job to be handicapped to make content fun like "shive EX" as relevant as that is

[ItMe]

all of ur pros boil down to is "its easy"

I'm sorry if you're reading it that way.
I don't think it's easy. I find MCH a challenge to balance, especially when things start to go wrong it's really hard to get back on track. I like that the tipping point for MCH is a little more forgiving and its tools are loose enough to help an astute player stay on top of things.

everything u said can be about any bloody job,

You must just be better than me then. Because with other jobs I def don't feel this way. When SMNs rotation is interrupted suddenly when you wanna refresh your dots changes and they're really tough to manage. NIN needs to set up its trick attack so far in advance that if its interrupted it can be hard to stay on track with half your shit not being there when you need it and your meter management hitting the rocks.
Yeah, if you know the fight these are things you can plan around, but all I'm saying is I find MCH rolls with the unexpected better and that I appreciate that.

MCH isnt the patron saint of hard as hell jobs this is ff14 no jobs are THAT complex to require a job as remedial as MCH. RDM is easy but it has a support back bone, DNC is easy but is support is fun to utilize MCH is easier and has none. The fights is a whole discussion all together as thats not the jobs fault but a easy ranged job that doesnt have to worry about support, positions or MP bars, and have the least amount of skills in the game and none interplay with eachother unlike most Jobs, and its DPS 1-2-3 is the most bare bones, lower than Tanks, thats a issue for a dps that only can dps along with its other issues like Aoes being disconnected, ping, wildfire being token, battery turrets being lateral to MCH besides the resource itself, Turrets targeting issues, and Heat blast being the most mundane process to press it 5 times to optimized everythining (yes u weave ur spam buttons too) and the overheat speed penalization making zero sense.

Jobs are all suffering a purge of thought, astro made simplier, healers made simplier, MCh made simplier, and soon Monk will be lobotomized. disregarding it all as "raging" on forums no less is counter-intuitive and could easily get ur point across by saying "disagree" and moving on

I dont need a job to be handicapped to make content fun like "shive EX" as relevant as that is

(I said Shiva Savage)
Yeah, MCH is quite rudimentary and remedial and they should push its systems further.
I totes agree with you here

[Jirah]

I'm sorry if you're reading it that way.
I don't think it's easy. I find MCH a challenge to balance, especially when things start to go wrong it's really hard to get back on track. I like that the tipping point for MCH is a little more forgiving and its tools are loose enough to help an astute player stay on top of things.

Since you gave no examples or any clear ones i cant really agree or disagree, this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call MCH challenging . Ive played HW and SB MCH and other jobs in varies expansions and MCH is the easiest job ive ever played to a insulting degree. MCH being a ranged too, meaning its easier to DPS, along with the least amount of skills in the game and lack of intuitive mechs is a huge anomaly and the reason the outcry is relevant. In the MMO market and for the devs being way to willing to trim mechanics and resources we dont need starter jobs, job that are designed no to be fun but to be accessible and safe. Risk and reward , one of the fundementals of game design waning due to no risk

Beauty of mmos, changes happen all the time and MCH isnt gonna change in a patch, and sadly wont change much in expansions due to the universal praise for its lobotomy

[Payotz]

My contribution was to try and encourage people to see things from another angle.
Its rotation is simple, yes. But that also means it doesn't get screwed up as easily if the boss becomes untargetable, if there's a weird adds phase like in Shiva Savage, if you start skipping mechanics in unexpected ways, etc.
People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

I'm sorry, but personally I don't really see the pros of the MCH changes as if something as strict as SMN can do the phase, so to can SB MCH.

In fact, since Wildfire was actually on a 60 seconds cooldown the past expansion, Wildfire can easily be put on one of the aqueous adds, and then bursted down that way. You'll immediately be able to put on Gauss Barrel on at the beginning of the next set of Adds, and then overheat Rapidfire again on the third wave of adds. If it's not enough, the devs can easily make it so that the adds aren't immune to Heavy, so that puts a lot more gameplay in the hands of physical rdps.

And in terms of boss becoming untargetable, old MCH can easily just early Flamethrower into Overheat in bosses where they jump early, like Suzaku Extreme.

A MCH with the old 60 second rotation will fit into the current sandbox just fine, just like SAM GNB and DRG with their 6 GCD combos that can't be interrupted.
Taking out satisfying and engaging gameplay from a job and condensing it to just two buttons is one thing I don't agree with even if I do understand that they do need to appeal to the majority.

I just wish Square would STOP reducing job kits to one or two buttons and just start adding complexity again.
It's frustrating seeing something you've loved so much turn into a completely other thing to appeal to a lot of people, it's like turning BlazBlue into Tekken.
It's dumb.

[Jirah]

I'm sorry, but personally I don't really see the pros of the MCH changes as if something as strict as SMN can do the phase, so to can SB MCH.

In fact, since Wildfire was actually on a 60 seconds cooldown the past expansion, Wildfire can easily be put on one of the aqueous adds, and then bursted down that way. You'll immediately be able to put on Gauss Barrel on at the beginning of the next set of Adds, and then overheat Rapidfire again on the third wave of adds. If it's not enough, the devs can easily make it so that the adds aren't immune to Heavy, so that puts a lot more gameplay in the hands of physical rdps.

And in terms of boss becoming untargetable, old MCH can easily just early Flamethrower into Overheat in bosses where they jump early, like Suzaku Extreme.

A MCH with the old 60 second rotation will fit into the current sandbox just fine, just like SAM GNB and DRG with their 6 GCD combos that can't be interrupted.
Taking out satisfying and engaging gameplay from a job and condensing it to just two buttons is one thing I don't agree with even if I do understand that they do need to appeal to the majority.

I just wish Square would STOP reducing job kits to one or two buttons and just start adding complexity again.
It's frustrating seeing something you've loved so much turn into a completely other thing to appeal to a lot of people, it's like turning BlazBlue into Tekken.
It's dumb.

it concerns me, MNK apparent 5.4 rework will be a good lead to see if the devs are still committed to trivializing the jobs. If thats the case I do Not look foward as to how they handle the other jobs in the game or allowing jobs with universal praise continue to rot. At that point i dont wish for MCH to be good again but to keep this remedial influence away from other jobs like the corona virus. 6ft away MCH!

[Seraphor]

The problem I have with it, is that it's barely present in MCH kit. It's always either Auto Cross Bow OR heatblast, Drill OR Bio Blaster. And I really don't want to see another "choice ability" and I can smell Noise Blaster sharing a cooldown with Air Anchor. We would barely see Noise Blaster if it would happen, like how barely we currently see Bio Blaster or Auto Cross Bow: Only in dungeons. Current Machinist is locked with 2 Aetherotransformer abilities when there is 4 of them.

The "problem" here is that this is a ubiquitous choice between single target and AoE that every single job has throughout their entire rotation.
If you remove the AoE skills by making them single target, then people complain that the AoE rotation is boring compared to the single target rotation.

It's a simple fact of balancing that AoE attacks will be less powerful against single targets, and therefore redundant in the single target rotation.

[Kabooa]

The "problem" here is that this is a ubiquitous choice between single target and AoE that every single job has throughout their entire rotation.
If you remove the AoE skills by making them single target, then people complain that the AoE rotation is boring compared to the single target rotation.

It's a simple fact of balancing that AoE attacks will be less powerful against single targets, and therefore redundant in the single target rotation.

You generally solve this with a priority conflict.

Take Drill and Bio-Blaster.

You could make it so that both have a 40 second cooldown, but using one over the other sets the unused one to 1/2 the Recast. In this way, it is preferred to use drill against one target and bioblaster against more than one, but you would still use them both in either, though one would have to wonder how that'd play in practice when we have 6 gadgets across 3 shared cooldowns and trying to work that in between heatblast spam.