Man & Machine: a MCH Thread

[Payotz]

My contribution was to try and encourage people to see things from another angle.
Its rotation is simple, yes. But that also means it doesn't get screwed up as easily if the boss becomes untargetable, if there's a weird adds phase like in Shiva Savage, if you start skipping mechanics in unexpected ways, etc.
People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

I'm sorry, but personally I don't really see the pros of the MCH changes as if something as strict as SMN can do the phase, so to can SB MCH.

In fact, since Wildfire was actually on a 60 seconds cooldown the past expansion, Wildfire can easily be put on one of the aqueous adds, and then bursted down that way. You'll immediately be able to put on Gauss Barrel on at the beginning of the next set of Adds, and then overheat Rapidfire again on the third wave of adds. If it's not enough, the devs can easily make it so that the adds aren't immune to Heavy, so that puts a lot more gameplay in the hands of physical rdps.

And in terms of boss becoming untargetable, old MCH can easily just early Flamethrower into Overheat in bosses where they jump early, like Suzaku Extreme.

A MCH with the old 60 second rotation will fit into the current sandbox just fine, just like SAM GNB and DRG with their 6 GCD combos that can't be interrupted.
Taking out satisfying and engaging gameplay from a job and condensing it to just two buttons is one thing I don't agree with even if I do understand that they do need to appeal to the majority.

I just wish Square would STOP reducing job kits to one or two buttons and just start adding complexity again.
It's frustrating seeing something you've loved so much turn into a completely other thing to appeal to a lot of people, it's like turning BlazBlue into Tekken.
It's dumb.

[Jirah]

I'm sorry, but personally I don't really see the pros of the MCH changes as if something as strict as SMN can do the phase, so to can SB MCH.

In fact, since Wildfire was actually on a 60 seconds cooldown the past expansion, Wildfire can easily be put on one of the aqueous adds, and then bursted down that way. You'll immediately be able to put on Gauss Barrel on at the beginning of the next set of Adds, and then overheat Rapidfire again on the third wave of adds. If it's not enough, the devs can easily make it so that the adds aren't immune to Heavy, so that puts a lot more gameplay in the hands of physical rdps.

And in terms of boss becoming untargetable, old MCH can easily just early Flamethrower into Overheat in bosses where they jump early, like Suzaku Extreme.

A MCH with the old 60 second rotation will fit into the current sandbox just fine, just like SAM GNB and DRG with their 6 GCD combos that can't be interrupted.
Taking out satisfying and engaging gameplay from a job and condensing it to just two buttons is one thing I don't agree with even if I do understand that they do need to appeal to the majority.

I just wish Square would STOP reducing job kits to one or two buttons and just start adding complexity again.
It's frustrating seeing something you've loved so much turn into a completely other thing to appeal to a lot of people, it's like turning BlazBlue into Tekken.
It's dumb.

it concerns me, MNK apparent 5.4 rework will be a good lead to see if the devs are still committed to trivializing the jobs. If thats the case I do Not look foward as to how they handle the other jobs in the game or allowing jobs with universal praise continue to rot. At that point i dont wish for MCH to be good again but to keep this remedial influence away from other jobs like the corona virus. 6ft away MCH!

[ItMe]

all of ur pros boil down to is "its easy"

I'm sorry if you're reading it that way.
I don't think it's easy. I find MCH a challenge to balance, especially when things start to go wrong it's really hard to get back on track. I like that the tipping point for MCH is a little more forgiving and its tools are loose enough to help an astute player stay on top of things.

everything u said can be about any bloody job,

You must just be better than me then. Because with other jobs I def don't feel this way. When SMNs rotation is interrupted suddenly when you wanna refresh your dots changes and they're really tough to manage. NIN needs to set up its trick attack so far in advance that if its interrupted it can be hard to stay on track with half your shit not being there when you need it and your meter management hitting the rocks.
Yeah, if you know the fight these are things you can plan around, but all I'm saying is I find MCH rolls with the unexpected better and that I appreciate that.

MCH isnt the patron saint of hard as hell jobs this is ff14 no jobs are THAT complex to require a job as remedial as MCH. RDM is easy but it has a support back bone, DNC is easy but is support is fun to utilize MCH is easier and has none. The fights is a whole discussion all together as thats not the jobs fault but a easy ranged job that doesnt have to worry about support, positions or MP bars, and have the least amount of skills in the game and none interplay with eachother unlike most Jobs, and its DPS 1-2-3 is the most bare bones, lower than Tanks, thats a issue for a dps that only can dps along with its other issues like Aoes being disconnected, ping, wildfire being token, battery turrets being lateral to MCH besides the resource itself, Turrets targeting issues, and Heat blast being the most mundane process to press it 5 times to optimized everythining (yes u weave ur spam buttons too) and the overheat speed penalization making zero sense.

Jobs are all suffering a purge of thought, astro made simplier, healers made simplier, MCh made simplier, and soon Monk will be lobotomized. disregarding it all as "raging" on forums no less is counter-intuitive and could easily get ur point across by saying "disagree" and moving on

I dont need a job to be handicapped to make content fun like "shive EX" as relevant as that is

(I said Shiva Savage)
Yeah, MCH is quite rudimentary and remedial and they should push its systems further.
I totes agree with you here

[Jirah]

I'm sorry if you're reading it that way.
I don't think it's easy. I find MCH a challenge to balance, especially when things start to go wrong it's really hard to get back on track. I like that the tipping point for MCH is a little more forgiving and its tools are loose enough to help an astute player stay on top of things.

Since you gave no examples or any clear ones i cant really agree or disagree, this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call MCH challenging . Ive played HW and SB MCH and other jobs in varies expansions and MCH is the easiest job ive ever played to a insulting degree. MCH being a ranged too, meaning its easier to DPS, along with the least amount of skills in the game and lack of intuitive mechs is a huge anomaly and the reason the outcry is relevant. In the MMO market and for the devs being way to willing to trim mechanics and resources we dont need starter jobs, job that are designed no to be fun but to be accessible and safe. Risk and reward , one of the fundementals of game design waning due to no risk

Beauty of mmos, changes happen all the time and MCH isnt gonna change in a patch, and sadly wont change much in expansions due to the universal praise for its lobotomy

[Jirah]

You generally solve this with a priority conflict.

Take Drill and Bio-Blaster.

You could make it so that both have a 40 second cooldown, but using one over the other sets the unused one to 1/2 the Recast. In this way, it is preferred to use drill against one target and bioblaster against more than one, but you would still use them both in either, though one would have to wonder how that'd play in practice when we have 6 gadgets across 3 shared cooldowns and trying to work that in between heatblast spam.

*Reduces so/so by 20 seconds* sounds like a fine idea for any other job. I seriously don’t understand the issue of ST/Aoe choice skills I doubt BRDs are banging on about Bloodletter and Rain of death limiting choices like this or any other skill that shares a CD with a AOE counterpart.

Ultimately if this shared action was removed it would just have more pointless skill filler to MCH already bloated but at the same time hollow design with having besides its 1-2-3 rotation, 2 gadget skills, 2 Charge skills which have 3 stacks each from the get go. Sure RDM has both Fleche skills that don’t share a CD but both are just baseless buttons to press that don’t contribute to anything. It’s not a bad thing but it isn’t goodjob design to have Skill filler like this

Great Jobs flow like a river from one point to the next, while MCH flows like a puddle with no direction.

[Kabooa]

Great Jobs flow like a river from one point to the next, while MCH flows like a puddle with no direction.

I get you don't like the current implementation, but making statements like this is disingenuous. The job has clear flow. It has a consistent priority structure and well defined burst windows.

It needs work, but calling it an undirected job is blatantly wrong.

[Jirah]

I get you don't like the current implementation, but making statements like this is disingenuous. The job has clear flow. It has a consistent priority structure and well defined burst windows.

It needs work, but calling it an undirected job is blatantly wrong.

I get you like the current implementation, but making statements like that makes me wonder what job your playing.

So the river comparison let’s take BRD as it’s MCH role cousin for example. From the get go at 80 you have 2 dots, 3 ogcds, 3 Ogcd songs, and 1 Attack buff. BRD has what MCH lacks, structure. Not a single skill is wasted and everything aligns to benefit BRD Kit. You don’t mindlessly button mash a few skills with the facade of speed, you don’t spam anything as unless it’s Fell cleave with large numbers and cathartic visuals spamming is not fun, more so if it’s ranged. Regardless of BRD potency issues and support issues it’s far more structured than MCH. With 2 ogcd wirh 3 charges each, 2 GCDs and its rotation with no road map but to spam spam spam then Increase heat to continue to spam spam spam. Then continue the blandest rotation in the game and rinse repeat. It’s a dog’s breakfast of a job lots of buttons barley any link

[Kabooa]

I get you like the current implementation, but making statements like that makes me wonder what job your playing.

Using my own words, and using them poorly at that, isn't doing you any favors. My own opinion on the current state of Machinist is pretty neutral. It's just a less punishing Stormblood.

This river blurb is interesting because it is full of objectively wrong information.

Not a single skill wasted: Warden's Paen, This is basically the equivalent of Mach's Flamethrower in breadth of use. There are very specific cases where it has use, but then so there is for Flamethrower.

Everything aligns: Man, do the other bards have words for you.

Mindlessly mashing skills: Literally Heavy(Burst) Shot. Hope you proc.

Rotation Roadmap: You can literally map out every single GCD and OGCD usage on Machinist. You cannot on Bard, primarily because its based on procs. You can, however, plan most of the important ones - Namely your Barrage Refulgent and your dot refresh Iron Jaws, and your song windows.

[Jirah]

Using my own words, and using them poorly at that, isn't doing you any favors. My own opinion on the current state of Machinist is pretty neutral. It's just a less punishing Stormblood.

This river blurb is interesting because it is full of objectively wrong information.

Not a single skill wasted: Warden's Paen, This is basically the equivalent of Mach's Flamethrower in breadth of use. There are very specific cases where it has use, but then so there is for Flamethrower.

Everything aligns: Man, do the other bards have words for you.

Mindlessly mashing skills: Literally Heavy(Burst) Shot. Hope you proc.

Rotation Roadmap: You can literally map out every single GCD and OGCD usage on Machinist. You cannot on Bard, primarily because its based on procs. You can, however, plan most of the important ones - Namely your Barrage Refulgent and your dot refresh Iron Jaws, and your song windows.

Let me focus on the facts then and remain on topic.

drawing straws at BRD support for your argument are we when the situation was for a single target boss not support which MCH doesnt hold a candle despite the moniker of "ranged support" which is defined by the role itself. Flamethrower doesnt accumulate heat nor compliments anything what so ever or enhances anything like most skills do but wasnt talking about flamethrower but it certainly is a off handed fragmented skill much like the whole job in general.

What words are those? Unless you have nothing to say about it yourself

Incredibly poor example, for one BRD isnt forced to press it over and over like Heat blast and two it adapts to each song and keeping its dots on is the bigger focus and they all at least have a link without getting to much into the kit.

also a less punishing Stormblood? they lost like 8 skills its and what they added as replacements just made the job have more buttons to press but no buttons that align with one another. which was my point overall

[Kabooa]

Let me focus on the facts then and remain on topic.

drawing straws at BRD support for your argument are we when the situation was for a single target boss not support which MCH doesnt hold a candle despite the moniker of "ranged support" which is defined by the role itself. Flamethrower doesnt accumulate heat nor compliments anything what so ever or enhances anything like most skills do but wasnt talking about flamethrower but it certainly is a off handed fragmented skill much like the whole job in general.

What words are those? Unless you have nothing to say about it yourself

Incredibly poor example, for one BRD isnt forced to press it over and over like Heat blast and two it adapts to each song and keeping its dots on is the bigger focus and they all at least have a link without getting to much into the kit.

also a less punishing Stormblood? they lost like 8 skills its and what they added as replacements just made the job have more buttons to press but no buttons that align with one another. which was my point overall

You laid no situation, you said "no wasted skills". Your lack of precision isn't my fault, nor my problem.

Bard isn't forced to press Heavy/Burst Shot? You sure you want to make that claim?

Yes, less punishing than Stormblood. You're more than welcome to to prove otherwise, but you're going to have a hard time doing that when all data shows one of the tightest performance bands belongs to the Machinist.