Man & Machine: a MCH Thread

[ty_taurus]

On my quest to level all jobs to 80, my next in line is MCH (which is currently sitting at level 77). For reference, I was almost exclusively a healer until Shadowbringers came out in which I immediately dropped healing for Dancer and have played Dancer almost exclusively in end game content (including Savage).

A part of my challenge in playing MCH correctly is undoubtably experience, but what I've noticed now that I essentially have all my tools is that the engagement factor seems to be managing all your cooldowns. I need to focus on using Drill/Bio Blaster, Anchor Shot, Wildfire, Reassemble, and Autoturret (later Automaton Queen) on cooldown while ensuring my Hypercharge phases aren't causing these cooldowns to clip. Before when Gauss Round and Ricochet only had 2 charges max, I also wanted to make sure that they weren't going to CD overflow when using Heat Blast, though that's become a lot more comfortable with the charges now increased to 3.

I find myself paying a lot of attention to all these CDs to try and make sure I'm using them correctly, but I assume this gets a lot easier with practice? If so, I can understand why it might seem more brain dead, but thus far I find it a lot to pay attention to.

[Jirah]

On my quest to level all jobs to 80, my next in line is MCH (which is currently sitting at level 77). For reference, I was almost exclusively a healer until Shadowbringers came out in which I immediately dropped healing for Dancer and have played Dancer almost exclusively in end game content (including Savage).

A part of my challenge in playing MCH correctly is undoubtably experience, but what I've noticed now that I essentially have all my tools is that the engagement factor seems to be managing all your cooldowns. I need to focus on using Drill/Bio Blaster, Anchor Shot, Wildfire, Reassemble, and Autoturret (later Automaton Queen) on cooldown while ensuring my Hypercharge phases aren't causing these cooldowns to clip. Before when Gauss Round and Ricochet only had 2 charges max, I also wanted to make sure that they weren't going to CD overflow when using Heat Blast, though that's become a lot more comfortable with the charges now increased to 3.

I find myself paying a lot of attention to all these CDs to try and make sure I'm using them correctly, but I assume this gets a lot easier with practice? If so, I can understand why it might seem more brain dead, but thus far I find it a lot to pay attention to.

in fact you get all ur tools to have a optimized 80 rotation by lv 50, 58 u get drill which is like fleche and only act as damage, and 66 with stabilizer and everything is is shallow "upgrades"

MCH 4.0 issues with progression is you get skills that dont make sense or useless way too early. While 5.0 busts its load at 50 and barely evolves at all through the 30 levels making it feel hella stale. Your rotation used to be in a single trait at lv 64 now stretched out awkwardly at lv54 lv 60 and lv 64 and i have no clue why they did this Drill could be moved to 60 and the whole rotation be at 64 like in 4.0...and man im digressing again. Yea the job doesnt evolve much from 50 most of its new tools are upgrades

[Jirah]

Ah don't get me started on how ShB made everything selfish and removed all kind of support skills we had in role actions... Losing all the MP and TP regen among other things completely moved rPhys jobs out of their niche and now it just seems that nobody is quite sure what their new role should be besides... a subpar DPS since it has nothing else to fend for itself.

Also, having CD and Clean consuming ammo wasn't necessarily a bad thing since it was necessary for it to happen during WF to get the most potency out of it.

I never had issues with wrongfully using ammo, but from what I saw on the forums a lot of people did. The Ammo (or how I used it anyways) was to bridge a guarantee to Clean shot. It goes reload then Split-Slug-Split to have 2 procs one for Slug and one for Clean. Then you’d use Clean, QL, then Slug and Clean. This whole thing went against the instinct to do 1-2-3 which made MCH have a wayward rotation compared to many generic 1-2-3 rotations at the time.

[Valence]

Within the 3 ammo rotation in Stormblood, wildfire ammo went like:

- (no initial proc) > QR (1) Split > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) CD > (2) Slug > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD
- (slug proc) > QR (1) Slug > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) CD > (2) CD > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD
- (clean proc) > QR (1) Split > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) Clean > (2) Slug > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD

Which was aimed at maximizing the potency amount crammed inside WF, which required ammo to actually work on Clean and CD to gain that 25 potency on every ammo-ed skill. The rest of the time it could happen that with the other mid rotation reload you had already one proc ready, so an ammo overwrite was inevitable yes.

Even in HW with the 5 ammo where it sure was more awkward since... 5 ammo, it was still used as a boost under WF to get the most potency possible in conjunction with QR.

People had problems using ammo and proc priority right perhaps, but that's the same problem with RDM and DNC where overwriting stuff is also a reality. If they brought back ammo I'd honestly consider replaying that class again but I have no illusion that for whatever reason procs have been given to other classes like RDM (that even transformed acceleration into an ammo/reload tool) and DNC.

[Jirah]

Within the 3 ammo rotation in Stormblood, wildfire ammo went like:

- (no initial proc) > QR (1) Split > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) CD > (2) Slug > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD
- (slug proc) > QR (1) Slug > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) CD > (2) CD > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD
- (clean proc) > QR (1) Split > Overheat > (0) CD > Reload (3) Clean > (2) Slug > (1) Clean > (0) CD > (0) CD

Which was aimed at maximizing the potency amount crammed inside WF, which required ammo to actually work on Clean and CD to gain that 25 potency on every ammo-ed skill. The rest of the time it could happen that with the other mid rotation reload you had already one proc ready, so an ammo overwrite was inevitable yes.

Even in HW with the 5 ammo where it sure was more awkward since... 5 ammo, it was still used as a boost under WF to get the most potency possible in conjunction with QR.

People had problems using ammo and proc priority right perhaps, but that's the same problem with RDM and DNC where overwriting stuff is also a reality. If they brought back ammo I'd honestly consider replaying that class again but I have no illusion that for whatever reason procs have been given to other classes like RDM (that even transformed acceleration into an ammo/reload tool) and DNC.

Hmm I didnt look into tutorials and self taught myself so i think i may have done the rotation wrong this whole time? which is odd since i cleared EX and a few Savage with my rotation.

Mine was: Hypercharge--> HS-> Gauss-> Reload (3)->Spit (2)->Slug (1)- FT->Split (Slug Proc/Clean Proc)-> reassemble-> Wildfire-> Clean shot-> Q Reload (1)-> Rapid fire-> Slug-> Rico->Clean-> Gauss-> "Heat blast" x2->Split (Wildfire expires 20k dmg usually) then Turret overload when Vulnerability debuff wares off. idk if it was optimal i just assumed it was as my DPS wasnt terrible

[Raikai]

Oh I agree with most of the OP's points. Here is my input:

01) Battery gauge is just a glorified cooldown meter. It always fills in a similar pace. They should get rid of it and make the Queen a cooldown itself, OR - for a better solution - Have more abilities interacting with that gauge. Here are some ideas:
a) A "Stun Gun" that brings a stun utility and eats up to 50 battery gauge for a larger duration.
b) Like I've seen in other threads, a "Defibrilator" rez that works at 50 gauge
c) "Bishop Turret" that can be deployed using the same gauge mechanics as the Queen - And it is a healing bot. This would bring a little more (non vital) utility to MCH kit

02) I'd propose to have ammo back. 6 rounds. They are the resource used in the OGCD abilities Gauss B. and Ricochet, so you can choose which one you'll be using as your OGCD. Feels weird to weave in an AoE OGCD amidst your ST rotation and sometimes it can even draw unwanted attention to you.

03) IMO they nailed it with the whole fantasy around the job. Now it really feels like a proper Machinist/Engineer with many skills themed around Edgar from FF6... But the job still has a gunner aspect to it, mainly to its rotational ABC skills and that's fine, but I think the animations there are a little too over the top. I really miss the basic version of the shots. The flashiness could be saved for everything else. Also one nitpick regarding that:
a) Spread Shot always felt a bit awkward to me, animation wise... It's a machine gun thing, but it doesn't really match the weapon. I'd love if it actually used its own weapon like Auto crossbow does. Same thing for Flamethrower.

04) Flamethrower, honestly, what's up with this ability? It's one of the best looking and satisfying to use but virtually useless! I think they should improve the potency and the increase the cooldown to balance it. And also, let your character at least turn when channeling it, to make it a little less clunky to use. Also here's the idea of giving FT its own weapon.

[Jirah]

[QUOTE=Raikai;5439088]Snip

Stun Gun while interesting and fun to have ranged stuns again, would need to be worth while perhaps a AOE? idk
DPS with zero history supporting needs no support ty
and for bishop same, MCH so far is focused just on DPS so its more likely the devs will never give it any real support

Ammo, this would add another needless step to the charged system i feel the system should have priority over added crap to it

The flashiness was earned but now MCH is just a desperate successful attempt to appeal to anyone and it lost lot of luster leeching to braindead appeal.

I honestly dont understand why FT doesnt add heat? i doubt 11 ticks of heat stationary for 60 sec would break MCH tbh then it would blend onto AC nicely, but yea. As far as potency goes its sound and isnt underpowered in any way tbh so it doesnt need a potency buff tbh it just needs to have any basic connection to its kit...

Which is MCH biggest issue being 3-4 different ideas Human-centipeded together with no care

[Raikai]

There's also another thing that would make my experience with MCH a bit better, and that is Spread Shot, Auto xbow and Bio Blaster, much like Flamethrower, not requiring a target, since they are cone-like AoEs that irradiate from your character.

[ItMe]

Jobs that dont improve stagnate, wishing for jobs to continue doing nothing hurts the job.

When did I ever wish the job wouldn't improve or that it would continue doing nothing?
I was just saying I hope its rotation always remains open enough that its flexible.
I feel like you're straw manning me here.

"raging" If u like the job fine but if ur not gonna contribute to the debate without any counterclaims or perspective on ur behhave its best to just ignore the post all together

My contribution was to try and encourage people to see things from another angle.
Its rotation is simple, yes. But that also means it doesn't get screwed up as easily if the boss becomes untargetable, if there's a weird adds phase like in Shiva Savage, if you start skipping mechanics in unexpected ways, etc.
People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

[Kabooa]

People pointing out a lotta cons, but I wanted to highlight some pros too.

Alright, I'll say it.

I liked Stormblood Mach. I understand it was and still is a ping based job, but I happened to have suitable ping for it and I grew to love it. Stockholm syndrome maybe, but the more I played it the more I liked it.

Shadowbringers really isn't all that different. It more or less plays the same, it's just more rigid in its approach. Played as intended, it's the same loop, but you're not nearly as punished for the minor things.

Wildfire being minimized kind of sucks, but its balanced out by the lack of frustration that came from having 50% critical rate and only critting your Reassembled Clean shot. That's fine, I didn't feel like doing damage. That's somewhat moved to unmodified AA/Drills now, but that's fine. No different than any other job that relies on a high potency dump.

The robot is jank. It needs work. We need the ability to set a target for it somehow, both initially and after.

Wildfire as a 2min cooldown needs some more oomph to it - and it really should have AoE. Having the robot not interact with Wildfire is a giant waste of potential imo.

Flamethrower was never great, but it at least had purpose prior. It doesn't feel good to use even in its best case scenario. With the shift to the gadget focused Machinist, I hope Flamethrower gets adjusted so it doesn't feel awful while being objectively okay for its intended use. Ask me what I'd like and it changes by the day, but it's been mentioned (And today I happen to like the idea) of Flamethrower being a mode swap for the Machinist that puts them close range, changing their primary skill line and their "ammo" skills (Gauss/Ricochet), but a more realistic view is just AoE Air Anchor.