Man & Machine: a MCH Thread

[ty_taurus]

I was joking about that mech suit thing, lol, but you never know. When Heavensward came out, they were actually going to direct Summoner into becoming Bahamut, starting with the Dreadwyrm Trance, and when they got backlash, one of the statements they made during Stormblood was that "we learned that Summoner players didn't actually want to become bahamut. They just want to summon him." Or something to that nature, so who knows what will happen in the future.

[Ryaz]

Wildfire just needs a chance to crit/dh. This would put it in line with other 2 minute cooldowns (like Samurai's Senei). I actually enjoy the job flow, personally, and feel its a big improvement over the overheat mess we had in SB.

[Tsumdere]

I respectfully disagree with everything in this thread sans the issues surrounding Flamethrower and Queen, which are both skills I think that need more interactivity and or reason to use them.

I enjoy MCH's rigid rotation with more emphasis on the speed than the complexity. Frankly, I would like to see them double down on the speed/Hypercharge aspect of the job despite issues with high ping players, as it is what separates MCH from the other ranged jobs. Give it procs and a more fluid rotation and it's nothing more than BRD/DNC without buffs.

[Jirah]

I respectfully disagree with everything in this thread sans the issues surrounding Flamethrower and Queen, which are both skills I think that need more interactivity and or reason to use them.

I enjoy MCH's rigid rotation with more emphasis on the speed than the complexity. Frankly, I would like to see them double down on the speed/Hypercharge aspect of the job despite issues with high ping players, as it is what separates MCH from the other ranged jobs. Give it procs and a more fluid rotation and it's nothing more than BRD/DNC without buffs.

As insecure as i am with showing criticisms to one of my favorite jobs in the game ima speak out on this

the Speed isnt the issue its the tight windows for wildfire and the mundane heat blast spam, My perfect MCH will never align with anyones but you cross a line when the job gets unplayable due to said Heat blast spam. That takes priority imo

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

I respectfully disagree with everything in this thread sans the issues surrounding Flamethrower and Queen, which are both skills I think that need more interactivity and or reason to use them.

I enjoy MCH's rigid rotation with more emphasis on the speed than the complexity. Frankly, I would like to see them double down on the speed/Hypercharge aspect of the job despite issues with high ping players, as it is what separates MCH from the other ranged jobs. Give it procs and a more fluid rotation and it's nothing more than BRD/DNC without buffs.

I too am happy with its current design when it comes to its speed, MCH is straightforward but you always have an eye on timers to ensure there is no overlap during optimal play so you are constantly making sure the runway is always clear, so to speak, which I think clicks with a lot of players. I prefer it greatly to its SB design, though I still really miss its HW iteration, I also know that will never be coming back.

In terms of interactivity, I feel that Flamethrower as it is now is a consequence of the rework and should be looked at, I feel that it should interact with Bio Blaster, make it so targets that are suffering from BB take increased damage from Flamethrower, or perhaps they are afflicted with an extra short duration DoT, I also think Flamethrower itself could use a visual/audio touch up, it just doesn't feel impactful to use. If we are purely talking numbers, Flamethrower still cuts the mustard and is only below Auto Crossbow in potency, but I think just this extra interactivity would go a long way. I've see suggestions that it generate heat, but this would worry me, I don't want to see a scenario where we need to use Flamethrower on a single target again, this would hurt the flow of the job.

As for the Queen, it feels mostly like a glorified dot, but this is mostly a consequence of the games current design than a problem with the job, they have been weaning out most interactivity outside of whats on your current hotbar, even SMN/SCH go through this, with their skills being taken off their egis and put on the GCD, we do get a little bit of interactivity, we can choose when to summon it, which affects duration and we can make it leave early if we so choose, but I feel it could use just a bit more, I enjoy its presence, but I feel it could have one or two extra buttons along with Overdrive, something for us to think about while its summoned, could even make it do aoe if two or more targets are within range.

the Speed isnt the issue its the tight windows for wildfire and the mundane heat blast spam, My perfect MCH will never align with anyones but you cross a line when the job gets unplayable due to said Heat blast spam. That takes priority imo

I would argue that Heat Blast is just a really unimpressive button to push frequently, that is one skill you won't hear me complain about when it comes to needing a serious bump up in animation and sound design, I like the Hypercharge phase, but Heat Blast, Gauss Round and Ricochet do not roll off each other smoothly when it comes to animations, I think all 3 should have their animations reworked so they all flow into each other cleanly and smoothly, I think that would do a lot to brighten up the Hypercharge, as it is, I enjoy it, I wouldn't say its outright "spam" since you will be alternating between Heat Blast, Gauss Round and Ricochet very quickly at all times, but I understand this might be a problem for players with high ping/play on dial up or something, even giving you 5 stacks won't help you weave properly without clipping.

My suggestion is to make tune down the animation lock on HB/GR/R, so weaving between them all is smoother, but I won't pretend I know how this would interact with the servers or that it would be a guaranteed solution to the problem, the thing is, I really enjoy the speed and resets and really don't want to see them changed because some people can't do it properly because their connection isn't up to snuff, its like how they reworked Sleeve Draw because some players couldn't deal with using all the cards properly so they just made it so you get less cards overall, it sets a bad precedent and I don't want that to happen here.

As for Wildfire, yeah, this one just feels like a bit of a leftover, I definitely feel it deserves a spot on MCH's toolkit, but it really adds nothing, since you just throw it into your standard hypercharge phase with no difference, a couple of suggestions I've seen are about bumping up its potency or interactivity, suggestions like making the Queen contribute towards the total, make it so the oGCDs affect it (granted, this would change nothing) lower the cooldown to 60s or even make it a guaranteed Direct/Crit, because if its going to be on a 2 minute cooldown, might as well make it your hardest hitting attack.

[Tsumdere]

As insecure as i am with showing criticisms to one of my favorite jobs in the game ima speak out on this

the Speed isnt the issue its the tight windows for wildfire and the mundane heat blast spam, My perfect MCH will never align with anyones but you cross a line when the job gets unplayable due to said Heat blast spam. That takes priority imo

Speed and the wildfire windows are one and the same. If you do not have a problem with the speed, you do not have a problem with the Wildfire window.

As for the Heat Blast spam, if that is all you are doing, you are doing it incorrectly. The Heat Blast window contains three buttons that are pressed in quick succession as to maximize DPS since each Heat Blast lowers the cooldown of Ricochet and Gauss Round. Overcapping on either of those two means you are losing DPS.
I struggle to understand to understand how Heat Blast can be "mundane" when it is arguably one of the most high intensity part of MCH rotation, especially during heavy movement.

It sounds mean, but at some point if they want to introduce a "quick" job, they will have to design it in such a way that high ping players will never be able to maximize. There is nothing wrong with having one job that is ping unfriendly.

I too am happy with its current design when it comes to its speed, MCH is straightforward but you always have an eye on timers to ensure there is no overlap during optimal play so you are constantly making sure the runway is always clear, so to speak, which I think clicks with a lot of players. I prefer it greatly to its SB design, though I still really miss its HW iteration, I also know that will never be coming back.

As for Wildfire, yeah, this one just feels like a bit of a leftover, I definitely feel it deserves a spot on MCH's toolkit, but it really adds nothing, since you just throw it into your standard hypercharge phase with no difference, a couple of suggestions I've seen are about bumping up its potency or interactivity, suggestions like making the Queen contribute towards the total, make it so the oGCDs affect it (granted, this would change nothing) lower the cooldown to 60s or even make it a guaranteed Direct/Crit, because if its going to be on a 2 minute cooldown, might as well make it your hardest hitting attack.

MCH has never been more popular, which speaks volumes. It's understandable that people might miss what it used to be, but frankly the numbers speak and the direction MCH went is healthier.

I would actually like it if Wildfire was on a 60s CD, since now I feel like it lines up pretty funky in certain fights.

[Jirah]

Snip

Firstly, if your measuring a jobs popularity as its main source of satisfaction then its severely flawed. If that were the case GNB and DNC are perfect jobs. but i digress

agree to disagree I suppose but MCH is not in a good place. with its "popularity" i hope it doesnt just get a AOE judging by the stans that exist today swearing MCH is perfect. Mains should hope for improvement not stagnation.

as someone whos mained the job since HW this is the worst incarnation of the job so far. Nothing adds up, Heat blast spamming is boring even with the extra button you press, Turrets and wildfire are super inconsequential and loose, Rotation is the most boring rotation in the game, tanks have better rotation, Drill and Air flow unnaturally with everything, refilling Rico and Guass is awkwardly tied to Heat blast.

but ignore all this and have fun with your job, but its lacking alot being more mindless than DNC but less fun and is only getting a pass due to its DPS

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

but ignore all this and have fun with your job, but its lacking alot being more mindless than DNC but less fun and is only getting a pass due to its DPS

Come now, you think people are happy with MCH purely because of its dps? Have you forgotten that even after they heavily buffed SB MCH, that still no one played it because it was so bad that the devs had to apologies for its state and promise a rework because not only was it borderline unplayable for some people, it wasn't fun either, it was an incredibly clumsy and overly punishing job I played quite a bit of SB MCH and as someone who has also played since HW, I would argue that its SB incarnation is still the worst by far, which was so bad that its poor design bled into ShB MCH and is the cause of most of its issues, using flamethrower to slip into overheat never felt good, reapplying the gauss barrel never felt good, losing GCD uptime because the heated shots reverted back to the normal ones at the wrong time never felt good, it was a disjointed, poorly cobbled together mess that wasn't even fun to level due to its pathetically poor skill spread, I will agree that HW MCH was its best incarnation, but not that ShB is its worst, you think ShB MCH is a ghastly mockery of the true job? No, that dishonor goes firmly to SB MCH, the ultimate blemish on MCHs legacy that almost killed the job due to its woeful design and peak unpopularity.

ShB MCH takes MCH in a more focused direction, it focuses on GCD optimization and speed/cooldown resets, you constantly keep an eye on your timings and try to ensure there is no overlap/overcapping when you use hypercharge, you are given some wiggle room to work with, this gives the job a strong sense of flow, you try to argue that things flow unnaturally with each other, but this is objectively untrue, everything falls into place as you play, you are always building resources to spend, resources you can either spend immediately or keep for raid buffs, this is why I actually like the Queen, since you have the choice of when to summon them and even the choice to use pile bunker early, thus giving you interactivity that you can summon Queen to take advantage of raid buffs or to push a phase early, this is unlike almost any other summon in the game, would you argue this is "mindless" MCH play? I will admit, I think we should give Queen an extra layer of interactivity with another button or two, I think its fine in its implementation, its hardly any less engaging then the drop and forget turrets, which I liked. I would really struggle to say its way more mindless than DNC, hell I'd put it on par with BRD for the most part, I don't think 1-2-3-1-2-3 is inherently worse than 1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-2-1-1-1-2, even when you say Heat Blast is "mundane" or "spammy" its still a high cut above any other of its type due to its speed and oGCD resets, making your hypercharge phase very active in comparison to any other phase of its type.

Do I think the job is perfect? Not quite, but I think a solid foundation has been set to expand upon, one that has proven popular, fun and functional. I think they can give Flamethrower and Wildfire a look over, I wish they developed MCH's debuffer skills like Dismantle and stuff further instead of homogenizing the ranged role, do I think they could have added a few more buttons and an extra layer of complexity? Sure, but given what they had to work with, essentially having to reverse engineer a disjointed, cluttered mess of a job (SB MCH) into one that's actually functional, I'd say they did more than a good job, in my opinion, it doesn't need another rework, I hope we get more as we go forward, instead of going through another set of streamlining. I understand not liking the direction a job has taken, but I think you are exaggerating its problems, I genuinely dislike the direction the healing role has taken this expansion, but I don't think the jobs are mockeries of their older incarnations, merely that I hope they seek to improve them as the game moves forward, because I understand what they tried to do, but their implementation just didn't work well with the games design (when you can beat E4S without a healer, you know something went wrong)

[Tsumdere]

Firstly, if your measuring a jobs popularity as its main source of satisfaction then its severely flawed. If that were the case GNB and DNC are perfect jobs. but i digress

agree to disagree I suppose but MCH is not in a good place. with its "popularity" i hope it doesnt just get a AOE judging by the stans that exist today swearing MCH is perfect. Mains should hope for improvement not stagnation.

as someone whos mained the job since HW this is the worst incarnation of the job so far. Nothing adds up, Heat blast spamming is boring even with the extra button you press, Turrets and wildfire are super inconsequential and loose, Rotation is the most boring rotation in the game, tanks have better rotation, Drill and Air flow unnaturally with everything, refilling Rico and Guass is awkwardly tied to Heat blast.

but ignore all this and have fun with your job, but its lacking alot being more mindless than DNC but less fun and is only getting a pass due to its DPS

As someone who has also mained the job since HW (actually on and off in SB because it was so bad), is an Ultimate raider with it, and at a cursory glance seem to perform at a much higher level than your abilities with MCH (since we're pulling out personal achievements and sass), this iteration of MCH IS the best MCH has ever been. Things are not popular for no reason - there is a big reason why MCH went from one of the least played classes to one of the most played, and it is because it's better and people like it more.

And I am not saying MCH is perfect, because it's not. I would love some extra care taken with Queen and Flamethrower. I would also love them to perhaps touch up Bioblaster a bit more since MCH struggles a lot with encounters with two targets. I even posted above you that I think it would be a great idea to lower Wildfire cooldown to line up with the speed playstyle better.

Your personal anecdotes and opinions are not fact. I am sorry that your favorite job playstyle got phased out because bow/gun mage was unpopular, but that's how the cookie crumbles. I am still waiting for a true DoT mage since they reworked SMN. Better luck in future jobs.

[MagiusNecros]

MCH needs some synergy with Flamethrower and another way to build up Battery.

AQ sucks. Too much startup IMO. I preferred the Turret.