Thread: Everything wrong with 5.3 AST sleeve draw [Translated JP duplicate thread]

Hello, thanks for translating the thread.

As someone who used to love the job on release when everyone hated it, I will say this: they have not stopped to remove optimization elements from day 1.

We had weaker potency but we had cross-class systems that let us use Cure: that is what I used to do and brought the healing potency up to the other healers.
We had 3 dots, aero, combust, combust 2: but they removed cross-class so we lost a dot. Now we have only got 1 dot.
We had meaningful cards for different scenarios, and the old Lord/Lady was really good as it meant EVERY card was good because it was a potential free ogcd heal/dps.
We had heavy (stella), and stun aoe (celestial opposition) which whm still gets to keep for some reason.

I don't appreciate the card throwing single target as being optimization if you do it subconsciously. The single card throw is the biggest mistake SE ever did with the job.

We got used to using royal road to buff at level 35. THIRTY FIVE. Then now at lvl 80 we have to go back to lvl 30 gameplay?

If you played this job for a long time you wouldn't even have to look twice at a card to know: "yep, bard card. yep, black mage card. yep, co-heal messed up and went out of mana card."

The current cards are insanely boring to me because of the ridiculous removal of type of card. It feels like playing blackjack but all the cards automatically give you 21 because you cheat.

This problem with multi-press buttons will never be solved until they bring back royal road and give each card an identity again. I don't want to play with a deck of Joker cards. I'm not a cheater.

I understand you're upset about the number of cards but that's just childplay in comparison to what we lost and I would prefer that coming back first. We were able to single card before and I have argued in the past that it was actually a dps increase to do so if you got lucky and had perfect cards for each dps in the party. Nothing stopped us from optimizing that way, though aoe balance was definitely the easier option.

Losing the time/haste elements from all jobs except monk has also massively dumbed down gameplay. AST losing 2 time extenders, DRK losing delirium speed up, SCH losing fey wind.

I'm not the best at putting my thoughts across so I hope this makes sense! I feel like I've complained about this a lot but I'm still not over 5.0 even though I keep trying to pick up AST it just breaks my heart every time.

Originally Posted by Sabrenn

Hello, thanks for translating the thread.

We had weaker potency but we had cross-class systems that let us use Cure: that is what I used to do and brought the healing potency up to the other healers.
We had 3 dots, aero, combust, combust 2: but they removed cross-class so we lost a dot. Now we have only got 1 dot.
We had meaningful cards for different scenarios, and the old Lord/Lady was really good as it meant EVERY card was good because it was a potential free ogcd heal/dps.
We had heavy (stella), and stun aoe (celestial opposition) which whm still gets to keep for some reason.

I don't appreciate the card throwing single target as being optimization if you do it subconsciously. The single card throw is the biggest mistake SE ever did with the job.

You're welcome, however the only thing I can agree to in your post is your remark on dots (and I'm assuming you're including cleric stance here)... ya they took many things from many jobs away and its saddening. But when you say things like the old iteration of cards was somehow deeper in gameplay context, or that there existed a situation where single target cards in the previous iteration was somehow superior to its AoE cards, I strictly disagree. I will point you to these posts in case you haven't read them already.

In addition I'll make a few remarks:
"meaningful cards for different scenarios" - this is a fallacy. All cards were strictly inferior to AoE Balance, therefore there was no meaning for other cards to exist in optimal gameplay. You played the other cards as a compromise to bad RNG, and you still never played Bole, Spear[*Spire. This was a typo] or Ewer (because, who would ever depend on RNG dependent defense buffs/resources?).

"old Lord and Lady was good because every card was good" - ...really? Old MA was arguably the worst part of the old iteration for several reasons:

1. You NEVER needed Lady, because when you optimize healing you would never rely on an RNG dependent oGCD heal. Since you build your healing without the Lady, drawing the Lady was zero gain. In the rare case where I could hit MA without lowering PTDPS the Lady icon was the last thing I wanted to see.
2. Drawing and throwing Lord was no indication of player skill whatsoever, but you still had to pray for it when you hit MA because it existed. Good riddance of horrid RNG!
3. You had players sub-optimally spam MA to draw a million Lords instead of trying to buff the party.

In my eyes the word "childplay" is a much more fit description for the old iteration.

Originally Posted by hiz

In addition I'll make a few remarks:
"meaningful cards for different scenarios" - this is a fallacy. All cards were strictly inferior to AoE Balance, therefore there was no meaning for other cards to exist in optimal gameplay. You played the other cards as a compromise to bad RNG, and you still never played Bole, Spear or Ewer (because, who would ever depend on RNG dependent buffs/resoureces?).

"old Lord and Lady was good because every card was good" - ...really? Old MA was arguably the worst part of the old iteration for several reasons:

1. You NEVER needed Lady, because when you optimize healing you would never rely on an RNG dependent oGCD heal. Since you build your healing without the Lady, drawing the Lady was zero gain. In the rare case where I could hit MA without lowering PTDPS the Lady icon was the last thing I wanted to see.
2. Drawing and throwing Lord was no indication of player skill whatsoever, but you still had to pray for it when you hit MA because it existed. Good riddance of horrid RNG!
3. You had players sub-optimally spam MA to draw a million Lords instead of trying to buff the party.

.

Of course cleric too, that's a given for all healers however.

Bole was good if you were padding a dps because it's 150% potency increase of a balance card. Spear was good as an aoe pre-pull because it meant you could do your re-opener faster. Later on, it became a good alternative to balance if you had AOE and balance didn't appear. Ewer was good when your co-healer messed up (which I wrote above but I guess you didn't understand what I meant by "yep, co-heal messed up and went out of mana card." Also Ewer was always good because it was the -50% pot AOE royal road card.

Single target cards were better IF YOU GOT LUCKY. 4 100% potency correct cards on the correct 4 dps IS a dps increase over general -50% potency dps buff on ALL. It was very risky strat that's why I said "if you got lucky and had perfect cards for each dps in the party"

Of course lady is not the best out of lord/lady but there had to be a risk/reward and getting lady just meant one less gcd on someone.

If you are actually going to tell me that you didn't gcd heal back then, then I don't believe you even played AST when it came out and have nothing else to add to this thread because you don't understand where I'm coming from and never had this experience.

I'm not sure if you remember old AST opener or if it was different on JP, but we used to fish for aoe balance + lord pre-opener. In Zurvan pre-spear change from cd reduction to crit I remember using AOE spear in the opener for a faster re-opener.

About 1: You never needed Lady no, but it saved a gcd. That's a gain.
About 2: Drawing Lord was not skill no, it was a bonus. As it should be. If you want to play Fate without having to deal with the randomness I'm not sure what you expected from a tarot-based job to be honest. I enjoyed the thrill of getting the perfect run with perfect cards. Like gambling, when you win big you feel great and when you lose you don't feel so good.That's what AST felt like to me. And it's gone. You enjoy non-RNG and because of people like you, people like me lost their RNG job. You're allowed to not want RNG as much as I'm allowed to want it back. So if you complain about current AST losing cards, to me it feels a bit hypocritical because you already got your RNG removal and are complaining that other people are getting what they wanted, when people like me are still longing for the original job we fell in love with.

Do you see my point of view here?
About 3: I thought we were talking about optimized scenarios. You could say that about any job being played wrong. That doesn't mean anything.

Originally Posted by Sabrenn

If you are actually going to tell me that you didn't gcd heal back then, then I don't believe you even played AST when it came out and have nothing else to add to this thread because you don't understand where I'm coming from and never had this experience.

I wasn't going to go this far, but if you're going to talk like this you leave me no choice. Of course I played the job back then (at 300 ping, so I know all about clipping too), and I am absolutely sure I know far better than you about how 4.x worked. That's R2 personal & speed and R1 speed at 300 ping, and Beere that played the same way with better ping was R1 for pretty much every fight. No, in most fights you DIDN'T GCD heal or if you did it was absolutely minimal. If you did, and felt Lady had any kind of utility whatsoever that's because your static or yourself was bad.

Originally Posted by Sabrenn

Bole was good if you were padding a dps because it's 150% potency increase of a balance card. Spear was good as an aoe pre-pull because it meant you could do your re-opener faster. Later on, it became a good alternative to balance if you had AOE and balance didn't appear. ...
Single target cards were better IF YOU GOT LUCKY. 4 100% potency correct cards on the correct 4 dps IS a dps increase over general -50% potency dps buff on ALL. It was very risky strat that's why I said "if you got lucky and had perfect cards for each dps in the party"

First off I apologize for mistyping Spear when I meant Spire. I did play the Spear as a compromise weak-balance when it was a crit buff. With that said... Nonsense. If you thought 150% or whatever single target card was with any kind of RNG even possibly superior to AoE, you need to work on your math (or your static must have been terrible). Alternative? Sure, a strictly inferior one that you won't ever play in optimal situations. Spear(3.x) AoE prepull? Did you ever play in a static that aligns buffs? Or a DPS job with decency ever? As for Ewer, it was good to draw for RR, true, but you never played it (which is what I said for other cards as well) in optimal situations and that's what you care about I am assuming. Same goes with padding... who cares if you could pad DPS.

Originally Posted by Sabrenn

I'm not sure if you remember old AST opener or if it was different on JP, but we used to fish for aoe balance + lord pre-opener.

Of course I remember, and I despised every aspect of it. For fights like O9 where you couldn't insta-wipe, I was put into O8 on my own where I jumped off the floor to fish cards prepull before we entered the zone. I never want to do that again.

The only thing I can relate to is your point on you liking RNG. Liking or disliking RNG is subjective opinion, and I have no right to deny you on this. However, as an AST player I genuinely question your competence.

Originally Posted by Sabrenn

Not only do you try to link me with commission tracker url links to make money off me to prove me wrong and profit off me, but you also call me and the people I play/played with a bad player.

Enjoy your one-sided monologue. Nothing to talk about with you on this topic. You already made your opinion are are not looking for conversation.

If you think I am somehow associated with FFLogs and by posting its link I make money, you are delusional. I apologize if truth hurts you*, and you are exactly right, no I am not looking for conversation with unintelligible people that not only have no idea what they're talking about, but also tries to argue me nonsense employing failed roleplay attempts of high level players and think that I don't know enough to fall for it. I have no obligation to be nice to people that treat me with disrespect. You just got what you deserved for treating me like that.

*I could give you a Youtube video or Google Spreadsheets or whatever media that you find fit to provide proof for my words, but you know what, I'm not obliged to go out of my way so much to spoon feed you with answers. If you find FFLogs unfit for studying this game, that is a good description of where you stand, and frankly I have no interest in making any further statements for you. Good luck with improving your roleplay.

Originally Posted by Gravagar

So I get that you have some high performance marks, and you're proud of it, but... Take care that you don't lose sight of the rest of the mountain when you reach its peak. If your ideas are as self-apparent as you make them out to be, then you wouldn't have needed to make this thread. Using GCD heals and getting some use out of Ladies doesn't necessarily mean you're bad at your job or that your group's at fault for making you use them- could just be that you're in prog still. Prog's an important part of the AST experience too, no?

I was always talking about optimization and optimized scenarios, which in my opinion prog does not fall into. This person was trying to act like he had an idea talking about optimization in a disrespectful manner, so I just told him I won't be fooled. Prog is a totally different story, and sure, Lady could have been of value there given the randomness of player performance inherent in prog, or PF, or any other given sub-optimal environment. My opinions remain unchanged on GCD heals and Lady on optimized scenarios; if you were treating Lady with utility in optimal situations, you were not optimizing this job well.


Edit: It is true that I do have very clear concrete ideas on this job that I have built from my gameplay and my own theorycrafting, which of course are subject to change... but not through failed roleplay attempts. Feel free to prove me wrong with math. The (observable) player skill of a poster is irrelevant to how I react, it is more whether the conversations are respectful or not. As for why I made this thread, I made it to shed light on opinions of a playerbase that are usually silent in places like this, as I (maybe mistakenly) believed there could be some value in doing so.