Thread: Something in 5.3 MSQ felt off to me (SPOILERS)

Originally Posted by Limonia

I don't like this aspect of the game as well. Why did they made it so that Ardbert kind of is "inside me"?

If it were so that because we a part of the same sundered soul, Ardbert's soul somehow manages to travel with you. But I hate that my character is speaking with his voice, and that he kind of controls my body or whatever to hug his Amaro.

But I also didn't like that aspect of the Dark Knight questline (except for the Sidurgu and Rielle arc, I really enjoyed that one). It was interesting and well written, sure, but I'm not seeing my character as a psychopath with multiple minds, not even remembering things they've done.

I'd prefer it if my character just were herself. Or having a personality disorder is optional, through the answers you can give. It's enough if I'm not exactly normal irl. ;D

I know very well how you feel! Many ideas have been shared by everyone, and I really hope you may find something in the thread that can help you put your mind more at ease!

-Viv

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I can see what you're saying, and I can respect it, but I just can't agree with it. I don't think there's any puzzle to be built at all anymore. Every single soul is unique, and each one of them is their own person.

This is precisely why I use the puzzle metaphor. Each piece is different. Even if you combine them all to make a single image it does not change that each piece is unique.

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

No matter how similar or compatible two souls may be, the end result of something as volatile as a merging is the dominant soul just becoming more dense/strong with whatever's left of the other.

I think the reason why the WoL is the dominant soul is because they still have their mortal body. We have seen it being said that Lahabrea's sanity began fraying at the edges because he body hopped too much, so we know it is a fact that the body a soul inhabits can have very real effects on it.

As for how the WoL can "summon" Ardbert, the WoL is in the unique position of being personally acquainted with one of the shards of the soul they're also part of. So they can search their soul for the Ardbert piece because they know exactly who Ardbert is. But they can't for the other parts of their soul because they never met them.

Another thing to point out is Ardbert's "rejoining" with the WoL was not performed like other rejoinings. All the other shards of souls that make up the WoL returned to the lifestream, were taken from their realm by Hydaelyn, and then placed into those with the matching souls. In the case of Ardbert he never returned to the lifestream because of ascian (and then later the Word of the Mother) intervention. Furthermore the WoL was in Ardbert's realm and he gave himself willingly instead of being merely collateral damage that Hydaelyn brought to The Source. This could be another reason why Ardbert can live within the WoL without completely losing his identity. His soul didn't return to the lifestream and he joined with another soul by choice in his own home.

So you could say that forcing souls to merge is volatile because neither party is given a choice, but the WoL and Ardbert didn't force each other into the situation. They willingly merged. Ardbert knew he was in good hands because he knew the WoL wouldn't abuse the power he gave. We have actually seen similar before with Shiva and Hraesvelgr, and their union inspired an age of peace.

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

This is why the Ascians' plan is so unforgivable and why it is so important to stop them.

I completely agree that their plan is unforgiveable but we must also understand that those people have been grieving for centuries while under the influence of a vastly powerful entity. They weren't evil, they were literally suffering from severe PTSD while being forced to tirelessly work towards an impossible goal. They had to be eliminated not only for our own good, but for theirs as well.

At least Emet Selch granted us a smile in the end, likely taking comfort that his friend was still continuing their duties and upholding their values from so long ago despite being a lesser version of what they once were. I think it gave him hope for the mortal races.

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

...Was that literal Ardbert speaking through me?

Yes, and no.

You the WoL are the reincarnation of Azem.

Azem was sundered like most into 14 different souls.

there have been 7 rejoinings, meaning you as an ancient are nearly whole at the start of ARR. 8 souls rejoined. Ardbert is your 9th missing soul shard. 5 more soul shards and you are once again fully an ancient reborn.

quick insert theory the crystals you collected in ARR 6 of them, which became "hydaelyn blessing", these never had a physical representation in inventory or anything and from what I can tell they merge inside you when you don't have them out to show, what if these where actually just pieces of your soul, what if you are 100% whole now?

6 (Chrystal shards 1st chrystal is your awakening) + 1 (Ardbert) + 7 (rejoinings) = 14

ohhh!! back on topic...

... so you have now collected a lost piece of your soul, you have gained all his memories, experiences wants and desires, however going into this you were already nearly complete, so the stronger part of the whole. to make the old "Bird" happy, you show him Ardbert and use his memories and voice to talk to him, that was still you. You are now nearly fully complete, and more or less with training able to do anything an ascian can do. Literally the only reason the current batch of remaining ascians can do things you can't is training. Which if you pay attention Zeno is just like you.

Originally Posted by Penthea

This is precisely why I use the puzzle metaphor. Each piece is different. Even if you combine them all to make a single image it does not change that each piece is unique.

A puzzle implies there's something left to rebuild. I can't agree with the pieces-to-a-puzzle metaphor, because there is no puzzle. A merging will only make the dominant soul stronger at the cost of the other's existence. Elidibus himself was trying to rebuild something that didn't even exist at all anymore.

Originally Posted by Penthea

As for how the WoL can "summon" Ardbert

The WoL can not summon Ardbert, or Elidibus would have never been able to get away by pretending to be him.

Originally Posted by Penthea

This could be another reason why Ardbert can live within the WoL without completely losing his identity.

Ardbert does not literally live within the WoL, and he has very much lost his identity. What was left was is basic essence, and nobody other than specifically Seto was able to even notice a trace of him left in the WoL's soul. Everyone else who's sensitive to souls has called it "Restored" or "Normal, but denser". The WoL simply delivered a final message that almost word-for-word was very specifically said before by Ardbert. There was no new information because there is no more Ardbert to add up more of it. It was merely a gesture of compassion to give the Amaro closure.

Once again dear Penthea: I can see what you're saying, I can fully respect it, but I just fundamentally disagree with what you're saying. I don't think we have to agree with each other, but I least hope we can understand what the other is saying. I do understand what you're saying, I really do! It's a very interesting take regardless of how I feel about it! I just fear I'm not coming across clearly myself.

Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Yes, and no.

You the WoL are the reincarnation of Azem.

Azem was sundered like most into 14 different souls.

there have been 7 rejoinings, meaning you as an ancient are nearly whole at the start of ARR. 8 souls rejoined. Ardbert is your 9th missing soul shard. 5 more soul shards and you are once again fully an ancient reborn.

ohhh!! back on topic...[/hb] ... so you have now collected a lost piece of your soul, you have gained all his memories, experiences wants and desires, however going into this you were already nearly complete, so the stronger part of the whole. to make the old "Bird" happy, you show him Ardbert and use his memories and voice to talk to him, that was still you. You are now nearly fully complete, and more or less with training able to do anything an ascian can do. Literally the only reason the current batch of remaining ascians can do things you can't is training. Which if you pay attention Zeno is just like you.

Oh dear!

I've stated before in the thread in previous posts that I understand the WoL was once the basis for Azem, but that us, Ardbert or any other shard left of that original being became their own person and existence, and that there's no Azem left to rebuild. Emet himself understood this in the end, and left a contingency plan to help the WoL so that we could free Elidibus of his futile effort in rebuilding his lost comrades, which could never be done.

We may have merged with Ardbert through our similar desires, but we did not gain his memories, experiences or desires, only his basic essence to make our souls more dense. Even then, the WoL's soul, as is every other sundered soul is very much complete as they are. That was the whole thing Emet was not able to understand for such a long time. The Hades fight starts with him saying something along the lines of "Exposing our fragmented existence", which is the lie that consumed all of his life. Sundered souls are not incomplete or pieces of a bigger puzzle. They're as valuable and as complete as any unsundred soul. That's what Emet failed to see up until the very end when he finally sees the value in the individual souls left behind by the sundering.

As for Zenos, to me he's the most boring, uninteresting and annoying character to ever be put on XIV. If there's something you find relatable in him that's alright, but please don't compare me to him, though if that's not what you mean I apologize! I may have understood that part wrong!

I'm very sorry if I come across as a bit brash, but I feel very strongly about this topic. Thank you for taking the time to write your reply to the topic!

-Viv

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

There are no pieces-to-a-puzzle, because there is no puzzle. A merging will only make the dominant soul stronger at the cost of the other's existence. Elidibus himself was trying to rebuild something that didn't even exist at all anymore.

The WoL can not summon Ardbert, or Elidibus would have never been able to get away by pretending to be him.

I think you're taking what I'm saying far too literally. Well I can't explain it any better than I already have. To attempt to do so would just result in me repeating myself.

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Ardbert does not literally live within the WoL, and he has very much lost his identity. Nobody other than specifically Seto was able to even notice a trace of him left in the WoL's restored soul. Everyone else who's sensitive to souls has called it "Restored" or "Normal, but denser".

The WoL simply delivered a final message that almost word-for-word was very specifically said before by Ardbert. There was no new information because there is no more Ardbert to add up more of it. It was merely a gesture of compassion to give the Amaro closure.

Just because they can't see something does not mean it's not there. And given the scene with Seto was without the other Scions, we can't say for sure if they still would have been unable to see anything of Ardbert when he spoke with Seto.

While you may dislike the idea that Ardbert is within the WoL, I dislike the idea that the WoL pretended to be someone they were not and essentially lied to Seto. I personally think it would have been very disrespectful to Seto to do that to him. Certainly the person I imagine the WoL to be would not pretend to be someone else at such a delicate and intimate moment.

I also wonder why you think their reunion needed new information to be authentic. They were saying goodbye in a very short-lived moment, not meeting up for a few beers. The WoL has said goodbye to many people by now, and when saying their farewells they did not always say something only they would know.

Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Once again dear Penthea: I can see what you're saying, I can fully respect it, but I just fundamentally disagree with what you're saying. I don't think we have to agree with each other, but I least hope we can understand what the other is saying. I do understand what you're saying, I really do. I just now fear I'm not coming across clearly myself.

You're entitled to your opinions and theories, as I am entitled to mine

Originally Posted by Penthea

While you may dislike the idea that Ardbert is within the WoL, I dislike the idea that the WoL pretended to be someone they were not and essentially lied to Seto. I personally think it would have been very disrespectful to Seto to do that to him. Certainly the person I imagine the WoL to be would not pretend to be someone else at such a delicate and intimate moment.

I also wonder why you think their reunion needed new information to be authentic. They were saying goodbye in a very short-lived moment, not meeting up for a few beers. The WoL has said goodbye to many people by now, and when saying their farewells they did not always say something only they would know.

You're entitled to your opinions and theories, as I am entitled to mine

The conversation was pretty much word for word what Ardbert told the WoL after we returned from Il Mheg, which in retrospect fits with the idea of the WoL being the one speaking, "giving voice to the dead" or whatever, but it's not something pivotal for the scene and I think can be ignored if one chooses to.

And don't get me wrong: I don't like the idea of playing pretends for Seto either. It's just the only interpretation that doesn't drive me crazy or that makes me more angry at the devs for deciding to just puppeteer our character on the spot. The scene itself I really didn't care too much for. If you go over everyone's theories throughout the thread, seems every interpretation has like a hole to poke, which I think is a bit telling of how much of a mess the whole soul merging thing is.

I hope out conversation hasn't made you upset! Like me, I can tell you also have strong feelings about this, and I'm glad you were able to share them! The thread I feel has become a great resource for people to make sense of 5.3's epilogue. I've always believed one of XIV's strengths is allowing each WoL to craft a tell they see best fit for themselves within the bigger story, and as long as we can do that, I believe these conversations are all enriching the subject in a positive way! So again: Thank you very much for taking the time to read and write your answers!

-Viv