Speed run instances are killing PLD

[waldo]

While I'm not a huge fan of speed runs, getting rid of them wouldn't make paladin not shitty.

Agreed, other than getting better gear I guess, it will not have an effect on PLD.

Don't mistake this for a 'make paladin better' or 'warrior is overpowered' thread. Just saying speed runs are not good for many classes.

[Nexxus]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

15min Cooldown (after the end of dungeon) and 5th chest timer is the reason. longer cooldown (a day ~), no 5th chest timer, you don't have to hurry, you can play the safest and/or funiest setup instead of the most efficiently and easiest setup.

Also, be able to switch job in dungeon should be forbidden.

[Babydoll]

JP side has a thread specifically talking about getting rid of TA (Time Attack) chest since it only allows certain setup group with player skills to obtain rather than getting any type of regular party setup and try to get 5/5 chest.

I'm all for this too. Get rid of the TA and instead just make the boss actually challenging instead of a joke. Or rather like umm the whole instance....yeah...TA is not fun at all.

[DeadRiser]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

I don't know where you come up with these assumptions but I joined a party that was 6 of one linkshell and me and one another were of random pickup.

With class stacking, depending on the luck of what coincounter does and where morbol goes, it's all random. I'm not asking to make it easier, I'm just tired of class stacking and knocking out PLD just to do a speed run.

SE needs to implement a system that debuffs the party for having too much of one class/job and take away TA period. There's no challenge to this content, just beating it the easiest way possible makes it even worse. Why can't we just have challenging content?

[YuriSan]

Just gonna drop my vote towards OP's opinion.

I don't wanna be stuck on tanking on WAR which i really dislike.

PLD TANK FTW!!

[Jenday]

yea TA is old news, make the dungeon a challenge instead of making it sleep,nuke,run past shit every instance.

[Raikki]

Everyone in this thread agrees there's class imbalance. Everyone agrees the time attack condition is stale. Everyone agrees they want to be challenged. The problem is you're muddling these issues together.

Class imbalance is the reason for PLD exclusion, not the time attack. Remove the time attack and all you've accomplished is to give easier Darklight body drops to the same groups that are turning you down on PLD and will continue to turn you down on PLD. If you want to be included on PLD, ask SE to fix your class or get a linkshell that wants to do it "the hard way". You can still argue that the time attack is stale and should be replaced with something new that's more interesting and more challenging. That's still a perfectly reasonable request, just a separate one.

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

There are undoubtedly innumerable good ideas to address all of these issues, but it's difficult to have a productive discussion when issues are being lumped together that need to be looked at separately. The PLD problem is only solved by fixing the job. The stale time attack problem is only solved by implementing a new but equally-or-more challenging condition. The "not enough challenge" problem is more abstract, but mostly comes down to the boss fight mechanics.

[Treach]

Don't worry, 2.0 fixes everything, even cancer.

Just hope you don't die of cancer before it launches.

[Kitfox]

Everyone in this thread agrees there's class imbalance. Everyone agrees the time attack condition is stale. Everyone agrees they want to be challenged. The problem is you're muddling these issues together.

Class imbalance is the reason for PLD exclusion, not the time attack. Remove the time attack and all you've accomplished is to give easier Darklight body drops to the same groups that are turning you down on PLD and will continue to turn you down on PLD. If you want to be included on PLD, ask SE to fix your class or get a linkshell that wants to do it "the hard way". You can still argue that the time attack is stale and should be replaced with something new that's more interesting and more challenging. That's still a perfectly reasonable request, just a separate one.

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

There are undoubtedly innumerable good ideas to address all of these issues, but it's difficult to have a productive discussion when issues are being lumped together that need to be looked at separately. The PLD problem is only solved by fixing the job. The stale time attack problem is only solved by implementing a new but equally-or-more challenging condition. The "not enough challenge" problem is more abstract, but mostly comes down to the boss fight mechanics.

^This.

PLD isn't that crappy in the new dungeons. 80% of the dungeon run is about the whatever-tank running in to aggro everything, and the mobs are then blasted apart by the BLMs (class stacking) or slept by a BLM (not stacking). Only instances where the tank's dmg matters are the bosses. There's 2 of them in each run, 2. Your party usually has 6 members doing dmg. Tank is 1/6th of that. Just look at the problem in the right perspective...

Doctor Mog proved that you can do speed runs in all-jobs-party, anyway...

Longer lock-outs would make people want to take safer strategy, but I'd personally hate longer lock-outs. Why? Because I'd do one CC and AV run a day and would then be left with pretty much nothing to do. No, thanks.

[waldo]

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

I wasn't complaining about the PLD class mechanics. Believe it or not my paladin has around 4000HP, plenty of mana (never run out with cover / OM ~ DV) and can keep single target agro very very well. I think there is a place for AoE tanking alla Warrior, I'm not complaining about that class either. More-so the mechanics of the TA speed run instance.

I still dont understand, if you want the biggest and baddest loot, it seems more productive for the fanal boss in the instance to be a real bad ass.

Throw back comparison here. How long did it take you to kill your first Sky god in XI (or any game, plug in your monster), you're first behemoth/fafnir/aspi? It would be ok if it took a little time to accomplish the kill, the world would not stop spinning.