Speed run instances are killing PLD

[Raikki]

I don't like that to complete some of these "speed runs", it requires stupid class/job stacking.

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

[waldo]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

Incorrect assumption. Next time you see an AV pug shouting in ul'dah ask em if you can take your paladin along. 9 times out of 10 you'll be told no because they are looking for war.
This IS the case and that has nothing to do with me being 'inefficient' or me not 'knowing how to play'

[Raikki]

Incorrect assumption. Next time you see an AV pug shouting in ul'dah ask em if you can take your paladin along. 9 times out of 10 you'll be told no because they are looking for war.
This IS the case and that has nothing to do with me being 'inefficient' or me not 'knowing how to play'

So you think there's some terrible injustice because a pickup group isn't as good as a decent organized LS, and you demand that SE fixes this by dumbing down content that's already more than easy enough. 5 chest clears are, sadly, the maximum challenge provided for this content, and you're upset because your random pickup groups can only achieve them using optimal strategies. I'm sorry, but you'll get no sympathy here. You already know the answer is to get a decent LS and stop using /shout for your endgame needs. It's a disgrace that 5 chests are puggable at all.

[SwordCoheir]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

Taking into account for the average players skill, experience, and other factors like job availability however, most don't have the experience or ability to pull off speedruns. Even with an optimal setup your playing a game of Russian Roulette on time because of a plethora of factors that may happen unexpectedly, especially with inexperienced AV/CC people. Playing with the cookie cutter setups really just gives players the easiest option to combat against the time constraints, even though it alienates other jobs in the process.

That's not to say an experienced enough group can't do it with a horrible setup, just cutting potential liabilities out of the way makes the goal easier to reach, and when your just trying to reach that goal to begin with you go for the best proven way to do it. (By potential liabilities I mean like DD's who can't AoE reliably slowing kills, close ranged DD's on Coincounter potentially getting hit by 100 Tonze Swing that sort of thing.)

[Raikki]

Taking into account for the average players skill, experience, and other factors like job availability however, most don't have the experience or ability to pull off speedruns.

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Playing with the cookie cutter setups really just gives players the easiest option to combat against the time constraints, even though it alienates other jobs in the process.

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

[waldo]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

I'm telling you the speed run is built for the easiest route. Why try anything other than easiest way if it pays out the best?
I see you Raikki, do you tank AV/CC with warrior or paladin? I'd venture a guess of warrior.
You, and everyone else, should not be rewarded for doing it the easy way. It should be just the opposite, high risk high reward, NOT low risk high reward.
Not a personal attack against you or any other person, it's just speed run is done the easy way and the easy way should not be the most rewarding.

[Raikki]

I'm telling you the speed run is built for the easiest route. Why try anything other than easiest way if it pays out the best?
I see you Raikki, do you tank AV/CC with warrior or paladin? I'd venture a guess of warrior.
You, and everyone else, should not be rewarded for doing it the easy way. It should be just the opposite, high risk high reward, NOT low risk high reward.
Not a personal attack against you or any other person, it's just speed run is done the easy way and the easy way should not be the most rewarding.

Not a personal attack against you, but I've seen your profile and obviously "the easy way" for you is to PLD tank because you haven't leveled WAR. Of course you're going to be biased about which class to tank it on when you don't have a choice. I have both, and can play both competently, and if I asked my LS to let me PLD tank they would have no problem with it. I choose WAR like everyone else because it's more efficient, and when you're farm-clearing 5 chest runs hundreds of times it stopped being about the "challenge" a long time ago. My first CC clear was tanking on GLA (pre-1.21a) if it makes you feel any better.

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Edit: you say "the easy way should not be the most rewarding" but in the original post you say:

Get rid of this 'speed run' drop please, I'd much rather have a 5th chest for killing all monsters in the zone instead.

Anyone can tell you the chest condition you proposed is many many times easier than the speed run.

[waldo]

Anyone can tell you the chest condition you proposed is many many times easier than the speed run.

pick your conditions to make it harder matters not to me, and as far as me not having warrior leveled has nothing to do with it, this is not an 'omg nerf war' thread.

Let's agree any fool can have a MRD power leveled in less than a week

You can disagree if you'd like, your opinion is no better or worse than mine. Speed runs have broken many classes, not just PLD.

[Brannigan]

While I'm not a huge fan of speed runs, getting rid of them wouldn't make paladin not shitty.

[SwordCoheir]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

Nobody said they were completely separate from one another, however time based rewards gives little flexibility to players with few jobs or who are more casual players. It's not like Ifrit or King Mog where no matter what time you kill them in the rewards are the same. You could go in with an all GLA/PLD group and win even if it took forever and still get rewarded for your efforts. AV, CC, and DH to get the best it has to offer you have to be pretty quick and flawless, and that just isn't possible without lots of experience in those areas, or having the ability to output damage and mitigate every potential liability along the way to help make up for that lack of experience hence "cookie cutter" setups.

Most of us are by no means asking for easy mode or handouts, we're just asking for content to be more flexible so PLD and other jobs are considered just as much as current cookie cutter options and still give casual players a fair shot at obtaining rewards even if it takes longer for them to procure it.