Speed run instances are killing PLD

[Kitfox]

Everyone in this thread agrees there's class imbalance. Everyone agrees the time attack condition is stale. Everyone agrees they want to be challenged. The problem is you're muddling these issues together.

Class imbalance is the reason for PLD exclusion, not the time attack. Remove the time attack and all you've accomplished is to give easier Darklight body drops to the same groups that are turning you down on PLD and will continue to turn you down on PLD. If you want to be included on PLD, ask SE to fix your class or get a linkshell that wants to do it "the hard way". You can still argue that the time attack is stale and should be replaced with something new that's more interesting and more challenging. That's still a perfectly reasonable request, just a separate one.

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

There are undoubtedly innumerable good ideas to address all of these issues, but it's difficult to have a productive discussion when issues are being lumped together that need to be looked at separately. The PLD problem is only solved by fixing the job. The stale time attack problem is only solved by implementing a new but equally-or-more challenging condition. The "not enough challenge" problem is more abstract, but mostly comes down to the boss fight mechanics.

^This.

PLD isn't that crappy in the new dungeons. 80% of the dungeon run is about the whatever-tank running in to aggro everything, and the mobs are then blasted apart by the BLMs (class stacking) or slept by a BLM (not stacking). Only instances where the tank's dmg matters are the bosses. There's 2 of them in each run, 2. Your party usually has 6 members doing dmg. Tank is 1/6th of that. Just look at the problem in the right perspective...

Doctor Mog proved that you can do speed runs in all-jobs-party, anyway...

Longer lock-outs would make people want to take safer strategy, but I'd personally hate longer lock-outs. Why? Because I'd do one CC and AV run a day and would then be left with pretty much nothing to do. No, thanks.

[waldo]

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

I wasn't complaining about the PLD class mechanics. Believe it or not my paladin has around 4000HP, plenty of mana (never run out with cover / OM ~ DV) and can keep single target agro very very well. I think there is a place for AoE tanking alla Warrior, I'm not complaining about that class either. More-so the mechanics of the TA speed run instance.

I still dont understand, if you want the biggest and baddest loot, it seems more productive for the fanal boss in the instance to be a real bad ass.

Throw back comparison here. How long did it take you to kill your first Sky god in XI (or any game, plug in your monster), you're first behemoth/fafnir/aspi? It would be ok if it took a little time to accomplish the kill, the world would not stop spinning.

[Maxthunder]

As I see it and Im sure a lotta people would agree stuff like moogle and these instance dungeons should have a point system. Basicly you go in you kill mobs and boss and just finish the dungeon. Now points can be awarded based on a lot of conditions. Now said points are there by saved up for what ever reward the player wants, and I am not talking about a crap load of points at once but something that still takes time to aquire. Its been awhile so I can remember exactly which endgame had it think it was salvage, but a point system like that would help every1. See regardless if its a shitty drop rate or a point system, those players who want to get everything in a week or 2 would still get what they want as soon as they can. It would still be a time sync so if SE went with the point system it would be alotta better than now, by reason of wow i need 25k points and i now have 15k points woot 10k to go and i get (insert gear) whatever.

Points could be given for time it took to complete, how many mobs was defeated etc. Also on a furthure note rare mobs could be added to add a challenge as well as to earn extra points. SE is taking the easy way by makeing content that is the way it is now. Now instead of people argueing yes and or no about whatever lets turn that anger or what not towards those responsible and get something done about it.

[Treach]

Don't worry, 2.0 fixes everything, even cancer.

Just hope you don't die of cancer before it launches.

[Klive]

Remove TA requirement for the chest and replace with class diversity requirement for the chest. If you have more than 2 of any class, you don't get the chest. Quick and easy fix, although not ideal. Would make class stacking unfavorable though and people might actually try to learn to do fights with melee.

I also agree with that we shouldn't be able to swap classes inside the dungeon.

[Nexxus]

Remove TA requirement for the chest and replace with class diversity requirement for the chest. If you have more than 2 of any class, you don't get the chest. Quick and easy fix, although not ideal. Would make class stacking unfavorable though and people might actually try to learn to do fights with melee.

I also agree with that we shouldn't be able to swap classes inside the dungeon.

Love that idea, it's more of a challenge because you have to deal with only one whm ! with a paladin that mitigate damage better than warrior (they just need higher base HP), it could work well.

[Phobos]

Love that idea, it's more of a challenge because you have to deal with only one whm ! with a paladin that mitigate damage better than warrior (they just need higher base HP), it could work well.

Eight players, seven jobs. You would still have two WHM's. Also PLD still doesn't compare to WAR in my opinion (and many others'). The problem PLD has is there is no passive damage reduction to account for the HP loss. DV and the like are nice but not enough. The real issue PLD faces is that the damage it takes proportionally to it's HP pool is higher than WAR. At this point, WHM's are able to almost spam big cures without worrying about enmity or mp, so whoever loses less HP% is a better tank.

Even with an all jobs run, I'd personally have the PLD as support healer / light DD. WAR can tank better, and PLD has some decent debuff moves like Riot Blade that people sometimes forget about. Hopefully PLD will be as good as WAR at least with tanking soon.

[Raikki]

Remove TA requirement for the chest and replace with class diversity requirement for the chest. If you have more than 2 of any class, you don't get the chest. Quick and easy fix, although not ideal. Would make class stacking unfavorable though and people might actually try to learn to do fights with melee.

I also agree with that we shouldn't be able to swap classes inside the dungeon.

Your new cookie cutter builds:

Aurum Vale: WAR MNK BLM BLM WHM WHM BRD BRD
Cutter's Cry: WAR WAR/MNK BLM BLM WHM WHM BRD BRD

PLD still doesn't get an invite. This condition is also many times easier than the speedrun.

Edit: I'm tired of people letting SE off the hook for class balance and instead asking for some kind of artificial incentive to use inefficient strategies.

Furthermore, limiting the ability to stack the best damage dealers against bosses actually increases the desirability of the WAR tank's superior damage output.

[Phobos]

Easy solution for this, give fifth chest two conditions:

1. Time trial - the way it works now.
2. Job variance/continuity - no more than two players of the same job, no changing classes/jobs during the run.

That being said, I personally don't think its an issue. My first CC ever we won about eight minutes away from the goal and we had a mostly "whatever you want" setup. I can see it being a reasonable achievable task with more knowledge of the dungeon.

Also as far as class switching in a dungeon - that's the one thing that really makes this game unique right now. Not to mention the way class switching works right now seems very logical.

[Klive]

The main flaw of my idea, people might make BLM*2, WHM*2, BRD*2, and a tank as standard setup. Like I said, not a perfect idea, but a step in the right direction.