Speed run instances are killing PLD

[waldo]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

Incorrect assumption. Next time you see an AV pug shouting in ul'dah ask em if you can take your paladin along. 9 times out of 10 you'll be told no because they are looking for war.
This IS the case and that has nothing to do with me being 'inefficient' or me not 'knowing how to play'

[Raikki]

Incorrect assumption. Next time you see an AV pug shouting in ul'dah ask em if you can take your paladin along. 9 times out of 10 you'll be told no because they are looking for war.
This IS the case and that has nothing to do with me being 'inefficient' or me not 'knowing how to play'

So you think there's some terrible injustice because a pickup group isn't as good as a decent organized LS, and you demand that SE fixes this by dumbing down content that's already more than easy enough. 5 chest clears are, sadly, the maximum challenge provided for this content, and you're upset because your random pickup groups can only achieve them using optimal strategies. I'm sorry, but you'll get no sympathy here. You already know the answer is to get a decent LS and stop using /shout for your endgame needs. It's a disgrace that 5 chests are puggable at all.

[waldo]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

I'm telling you the speed run is built for the easiest route. Why try anything other than easiest way if it pays out the best?
I see you Raikki, do you tank AV/CC with warrior or paladin? I'd venture a guess of warrior.
You, and everyone else, should not be rewarded for doing it the easy way. It should be just the opposite, high risk high reward, NOT low risk high reward.
Not a personal attack against you or any other person, it's just speed run is done the easy way and the easy way should not be the most rewarding.

[Raikki]

I'm telling you the speed run is built for the easiest route. Why try anything other than easiest way if it pays out the best?
I see you Raikki, do you tank AV/CC with warrior or paladin? I'd venture a guess of warrior.
You, and everyone else, should not be rewarded for doing it the easy way. It should be just the opposite, high risk high reward, NOT low risk high reward.
Not a personal attack against you or any other person, it's just speed run is done the easy way and the easy way should not be the most rewarding.

Not a personal attack against you, but I've seen your profile and obviously "the easy way" for you is to PLD tank because you haven't leveled WAR. Of course you're going to be biased about which class to tank it on when you don't have a choice. I have both, and can play both competently, and if I asked my LS to let me PLD tank they would have no problem with it. I choose WAR like everyone else because it's more efficient, and when you're farm-clearing 5 chest runs hundreds of times it stopped being about the "challenge" a long time ago. My first CC clear was tanking on GLA (pre-1.21a) if it makes you feel any better.

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Edit: you say "the easy way should not be the most rewarding" but in the original post you say:

Get rid of this 'speed run' drop please, I'd much rather have a 5th chest for killing all monsters in the zone instead.

Anyone can tell you the chest condition you proposed is many many times easier than the speed run.

[waldo]

Anyone can tell you the chest condition you proposed is many many times easier than the speed run.

pick your conditions to make it harder matters not to me, and as far as me not having warrior leveled has nothing to do with it, this is not an 'omg nerf war' thread.

Let's agree any fool can have a MRD power leveled in less than a week

You can disagree if you'd like, your opinion is no better or worse than mine. Speed runs have broken many classes, not just PLD.

[Brannigan]

While I'm not a huge fan of speed runs, getting rid of them wouldn't make paladin not shitty.

[waldo]

While I'm not a huge fan of speed runs, getting rid of them wouldn't make paladin not shitty.

Agreed, other than getting better gear I guess, it will not have an effect on PLD.

Don't mistake this for a 'make paladin better' or 'warrior is overpowered' thread. Just saying speed runs are not good for many classes.

[YuriSan]

Just gonna drop my vote towards OP's opinion.

I don't wanna be stuck on tanking on WAR which i really dislike.

PLD TANK FTW!!

[Jenday]

yea TA is old news, make the dungeon a challenge instead of making it sleep,nuke,run past shit every instance.

[Raikki]

Everyone in this thread agrees there's class imbalance. Everyone agrees the time attack condition is stale. Everyone agrees they want to be challenged. The problem is you're muddling these issues together.

Class imbalance is the reason for PLD exclusion, not the time attack. Remove the time attack and all you've accomplished is to give easier Darklight body drops to the same groups that are turning you down on PLD and will continue to turn you down on PLD. If you want to be included on PLD, ask SE to fix your class or get a linkshell that wants to do it "the hard way". You can still argue that the time attack is stale and should be replaced with something new that's more interesting and more challenging. That's still a perfectly reasonable request, just a separate one.

When you confuse the issues like this and say simply "fix PLD by getting rid of time attacks" you offer neither a real way to fix PLD nor a real way to make the content more fun and challenging. Half-baked ideas about arbitrarily punishing class stackers with a penalty of some kind instead of actually addressing balance will never gain traction, nor would they get PLD any invites.

There are undoubtedly innumerable good ideas to address all of these issues, but it's difficult to have a productive discussion when issues are being lumped together that need to be looked at separately. The PLD problem is only solved by fixing the job. The stale time attack problem is only solved by implementing a new but equally-or-more challenging condition. The "not enough challenge" problem is more abstract, but mostly comes down to the boss fight mechanics.