Speed run instances are killing PLD

[syntaxlies]

Who's to say team B would take 60 minutes? Why is it you assume that? I'd venture to guess the time would be closer to 5-10 minutes longer at the most.

You could spend that time shouting in ul'dah for a warrior though, if it pleases you.

first of all it was just example calm down. Second of all id sooner not do dungeons then resort to shouting for members.

Easy solution for this, give fifth chest two conditions:




1. Time trial - the way it works now.
2. Job variance/continuity - no more than two players of the same job, no changing classes/jobs during the run.

That being said, I personally don't think its an issue. My first CC ever we won about eight minutes away from the goal and we had a mostly "whatever you want" setup. I can see it being a reasonable achievable task with more knowledge of the dungeon.

Also as far as class switching in a dungeon - that's the one thing that really makes this game unique right now. Not to mention the way class switching works right now seems very logical.

Remove TA requirement for the chest and replace with class diversity requirement for the chest. If you have more than 2 of any class, you don't get the chest. Quick and easy fix, although not ideal. Would make class stacking unfavorable though and people might actually try to learn to do fights with melee.

I also agree with that we shouldn't be able to swap classes inside the dungeon.

requiring a chest to pop for having all classes in party is just as bad as doing speed runs with class stacking. Either way you are removing the freedom that people desire in party structure.

[Ricky]

Paladin seriously needs help, I have played this game since day 1 and Gladiator/Paladin are my first job but I have only ever once been asked to use Paladin over Warrior (or GLA over MRD for that matter) and that was for the WHM AF body quest. When you compare the tanking tools the Warrior gets to the ones the Paladin gets from the job quests it makes you wonder why Warrior needs superior HP and damage on top of all that. Maybe if they tacked on like 80 hp per piece of AF there may be some equality

[syntaxlies]

Paladin seriously needs help, I have played this game since day 1 and Gladiator/Paladin are my first job but I have only ever once been asked to use Paladin over Warrior (or GLA over MRD for that matter) and that was for the WHM AF body quest. When you compare the tanking tools the Warrior gets to the ones the Paladin gets from the job quests it makes you wonder why Warrior needs superior HP and damage on top of all that. Maybe if they tacked on like 80 hp per piece of AF there may be some equality

gld was my first class, it was always neglected. Then darkhold came, finally a chance for me to shine as a glad. Then action changed, no more guard stance no more blocking. I lvled my mar and tanked ifrit on mar and haven't looked back since. I didnt even bother getting PLD yet, lol.

[DeadRiser]

This. x1021365413621354

I don't like that to complete some of these "speed runs", it requires stupid class/job stacking.

I went into a "speed run" party and it was pretty lame in AV. Stacked 5 black mages in the beggining, then stacked 5 monks at the boss. I don't want to be "required" with these setups just to get a chest that has a horrible drop rate to begin with.

[Raikki]

I don't like that to complete some of these "speed runs", it requires stupid class/job stacking.

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

[SwordCoheir]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

Taking into account for the average players skill, experience, and other factors like job availability however, most don't have the experience or ability to pull off speedruns. Even with an optimal setup your playing a game of Russian Roulette on time because of a plethora of factors that may happen unexpectedly, especially with inexperienced AV/CC people. Playing with the cookie cutter setups really just gives players the easiest option to combat against the time constraints, even though it alienates other jobs in the process.

That's not to say an experienced enough group can't do it with a horrible setup, just cutting potential liabilities out of the way makes the goal easier to reach, and when your just trying to reach that goal to begin with you go for the best proven way to do it. (By potential liabilities I mean like DD's who can't AoE reliably slowing kills, close ranged DD's on Coincounter potentially getting hit by 100 Tonze Swing that sort of thing.)

[Raikki]

Taking into account for the average players skill, experience, and other factors like job availability however, most don't have the experience or ability to pull off speedruns.

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Playing with the cookie cutter setups really just gives players the easiest option to combat against the time constraints, even though it alienates other jobs in the process.

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

[SwordCoheir]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

Nobody said they were completely separate from one another, however time based rewards gives little flexibility to players with few jobs or who are more casual players. It's not like Ifrit or King Mog where no matter what time you kill them in the rewards are the same. You could go in with an all GLA/PLD group and win even if it took forever and still get rewarded for your efforts. AV, CC, and DH to get the best it has to offer you have to be pretty quick and flawless, and that just isn't possible without lots of experience in those areas, or having the ability to output damage and mitigate every potential liability along the way to help make up for that lack of experience hence "cookie cutter" setups.

Most of us are by no means asking for easy mode or handouts, we're just asking for content to be more flexible so PLD and other jobs are considered just as much as current cookie cutter options and still give casual players a fair shot at obtaining rewards even if it takes longer for them to procure it.

[Nexxus]

Pickup groups will follow the easiest strategy possible regardless of a time-based reward. Countless pickup groups have been run using "cookie cutter setups" without any intention or hope of accomplishing a 5 chest clear. In 1.18, people stacked ARCs for Darkhold before they even knew there was a 25 minute chest to be had. In 1.19, people stacked LNCs when there was no time-based reward at all. 1.20 brought more ARC stacking, and again no time-based reward. Am I really supposed to believe now that 1.21 class stacking and cookie cutter setups are because of the 5 chest time condition, which you've just told me most people can't accomplish anyway?

15min Cooldown (after the end of dungeon) and 5th chest timer is the reason. longer cooldown (a day ~), no 5th chest timer, you don't have to hurry, you can play the safest and/or funiest setup instead of the most efficiently and easiest setup.

Also, be able to switch job in dungeon should be forbidden.

[DeadRiser]

I don't think "requires" means what you think it means. Someone already claimed this in another thread, and docmog ran an "all jobs" AV 5chest run (including PLD tank) and won first try, recorded it, and posted it. When decent LSes run these dungeons with "stacked classes" there are several minutes to spare at the end. That's plenty of extra time to do it less efficiently if you want. What you're really asking for is to be able to 5 chest with inefficient classes without knowing how to play.

I don't know where you come up with these assumptions but I joined a party that was 6 of one linkshell and me and one another were of random pickup.

With class stacking, depending on the luck of what coincounter does and where morbol goes, it's all random. I'm not asking to make it easier, I'm just tired of class stacking and knocking out PLD just to do a speed run.

SE needs to implement a system that debuffs the party for having too much of one class/job and take away TA period. There's no challenge to this content, just beating it the easiest way possible makes it even worse. Why can't we just have challenging content?