Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.3

Originally Posted by YianKutku

I did make a point earlier in this thread that it's actually not, and that's an even bigger problem: the Yorha raid treats it as some brand new out-of-context problem, while our character should probably just go "yeah, this sort of thing happens surprisingly often".

Specifically I'm thinking of Omega.

I guess you can make an argument that the Allagans had advanced technology not too dissimilar from what you'd see in a sci-fi setting. That's in fact why the Garleans are so obsessed with Allagan artifacts, and how magitek was born. Then there's the Werlyt storyline where we are seeing organic and synthetic organisms merging. So, it may not be as far out there as I initially thought.

Still, though, the whole thing just seems jarring to me. And the implications if all this proves to be canon are just...odd. Putting it kindly.

Originally Posted by YianKutku

I figure that sequence was meant to illustrate (with the subtlety of an anvil, but that's standard for FFXIV) that even if the desire to become Warriors of Light to help people was initially prompted by someone with ulterior nefarious motives, it is still a good and noble desire to want to help people. Alphinaud mentions as much after the grape-picking.

While I'm positive that is the case, I think the other reason for it was to compare them to the more extreme case that is Elidibus. The kids look up to you for all the things you've done and wish to emulate you by becoming Warrior's of Light as well. Elidibus admired the First WoL enough, stating that even though they where sundered, they had fought for the world's salvation, for hope. He then proceeded to become like him by literally becoming him via possession.

This comparison makes sense to me with the reveal that Elidibus was a child when he became Zodiark's heart, as I took his appearance at the end of the MSQ to be literal instead of symbolic as it fit with the fact that Zodiark was kept as a child in FFXII, so why not his heart actually be one in XIV (he also looked shorter then the other Ancients in the Echo from his perspective).

Speaking of those kids, if you talk them after the MSQ, specifically Arkil, you find out they have the Echo too. They heard Hydaelyn, but they couldn't understand what she was saying, just that she sounded nice.

I'm not the best at articulating my thoughts, so I hope that made sense?

Originally Posted by Iscah

Someone elsewhere pointed out that the two stones he's holding at the end are Lahabrea and Emet-Selch's. I haven't double-checked that for myself, but it's a nice detail.

While one of them is Lahabrea's, the other one is actually Igeyorhm's (the green one). Makes some sense to me as it wasn't till after their deaths in ARF that Elidibus actually started seeing us as a problem. And I've seen elsewhere that someone checked the files, and that the two ancients talking to him in the Echo where labeled as them. So he was quoting them as he died.

Originally Posted by PoLaD

[correction]

Thanks for that - I updated my original post.

I'm going to talk more general here so I don't think spoiler tags are necessary.

I don't think Yorha raid series will be canon to ffxiv story at all but I also have a hard time finding something else on the First that could fill the 24 man space, on the Source sure plenty of areas but the First not so much, The Empty is being handled by Eden raid series so not much left besides Ronkan Ruins maybe.

The fact it is on the First and only we interact with it amongst the scions allows it to be more free reign to do what it wants, I can understand people not liking this as how does it fit? On the First I don't think it fits well at all, had Yorha been on the Source it would be a lot more believable due to the Allagans but it would then have to have the caveat of it must 100% fit in and Yoko Taro would be forced to be reigned in a lot more and given a lot more limitations which may have hurt people's current enjoyment of the series. Yoko Taro has said it is canon to Nier Automata in some way, we still don't know how, it has never been stated this raid series is canon to FFXIV's story.

I like to point out something from the MSQ that happens before you can do the Nier raid, Mt Gulg is lifted up off the ground. Does anyone know what would happen if say Mt. Fuji was to suddenly be lifted into the air and how that would affect the surrounding area? I doubt it because it will never happen, so would it not be possible that once Mt Gulg was lifted up by Vauthry it could cause a tectonic shift collapsing other areas revealing the factory from being underground to now being the top layer? Possibly.

You got me on the bunker parts something like that would stick out even if the sand was as high as the structure parts themselves, they stand out as metal.

People were wanting a Nier crossover event and SE delivered on it and gave more than other ones that tend to be disjointed from FFXIV but they gave it the 24 man series in the expansion on the world that the least amount of characters are affected(only the scions have the full knowledge of the First on the Source), I don't think Yoko Taro would be happy with just 2/3 quests for his characters to blip in and out in a crossover he wanted to tell a story here and it just follows his way of story telling which is an acquired taste to be sure.

Originally Posted by Crushnight

People were wanting a Nier crossover event and SE delivered on it and gave more than other ones that tend to be disjointed from FFXIV but they gave it the 24 man series in the expansion on the world that the least amount of characters are affected(only the scions have the full knowledge of the First on the Source), I don't think Yoko Taro would be happy with just 2/3 quests for his characters to blip in and out in a crossover he wanted to tell a story here and it just follows his way of story telling which is an acquired taste to be sure.

I do believe that is the main issue tho, feedback and listening to oyur fans and customers is one thing but often it gets out of hand to satisfy simply, changing things to something that makes no sense often, that is why we have Viera and Hrotghar in a poor state instead of make it how they wanted it to be, wanted to satisfy to much people, same with the NIER raid, even on another shard it feels simply way out of place for people, even if it was burried, how did it got there in the first place, they clearly still written down history before the light flood, it still feels out of nowhere simply. On top of its tech seems not to suprise any character at all.

It is simply way to much fanservice not fitting itself in the world it was brought in. Unlike other raids which are FF first, fitted in this FF, like Crystal tower or Ivalice, Nier pushes itself in without feeling connected, it just appears and does its thing.

Originally Posted by Crushnight

I don't think Yorha raid series will be canon to ffxiv story at all but I also have a hard time finding something else on the First that could fill the 24 man space, on the Source sure plenty of areas but the First not so much, The Empty is being handled by Eden raid series so not much left besides Ronkan Ruins maybe.

Ronkan ruins could have been amazing. Or a desert temple in Ahm Araeng, or, say, mysterious dwarven ruins deep in the Duergar Mountains that aren't based on another game's setting.

The fact we don't have anything to particularly point to is a circular argument, because gameplay requirements are what drives their game world design. If they needed a setting for a 24-man raid, they would have created one.

By the same logic, if they hadn't decided to make a NieR crossover then we wouldn't have the Copied Factory and we wouldn't have just had an alien spaceship (as far as I can tell) tear a hole in Kholusia.

Originally Posted by Crushnight

The fact it is on the First and only we interact with it amongst the scions allows it to be more free reign to do what it wants, I can understand people not liking this as how does it fit? On the First I don't think it fits well at all, had Yorha been on the Source it would be a lot more believable due to the Allagans but it would then have to have the caveat of it must 100% fit in and Yoko Taro would be forced to be reigned in a lot more and given a lot more limitations which may have hurt people's current enjoyment of the series.

I don't see how it's more okay to wedge this into the First than the Source. They're equally real worlds inhabited by people I quite like, and I don't want to see the First get this literally-or-figuratively alien design forced on it. Canon or not, it's made a visual impact on the game world and I really am not happy about that. At least I could ignore the Factory's existence when it's isolated. Also dear goodness Chai-Nuzz must be beside himself right now.

As to whether it's canon to FFXIV or not? I certainly hope not and that the writers will never want to reference it again. But every alliance raid up until now has been canon - one has literally just become part of the MSQ - and we will be getting it in alliance raids forever more. (As I've said previously, I find it bizarre that this non-FF game is getting a permanent feature when actual FF crossovers have been temporary events, possibly contradictory to canon, and never to be seen again.)

If it was a temporary event, I could accept the focus on telling a story that relies on previous familiarity with the characters, because it's got limited time to do its thing and it's just not targeted at me. But this is a permanent, major side story in FFXIV, which makes me feel it should be comprehensible to FFXIV players first, extra fulfilling for NieR players second. Ivalice dropped the ball on this too, but not to this extent - I felt lost but at least there was clearly a story happening even if I didn't enjoy it much.

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Tobe fairness, there are other parts of the game that seems tonally different to the point where its canonical is a little debatable, namely the more comedic Hildibrand storylines.

Also I get the feeling that how the Automata stuff wound up in the Frist will be crux of the 3rd Raid tier and will likely be one of three possibilities

• The Result of Rift crossing that had be precedented by Omega on the XIV side (as well as Gilgamesh) and Caim (IIRC Nier spun off from one of Drakengard's endings) on the Drakengard/Nier side. After all there is evidence of a omniverse beyond Hydaelyn's multiverse of 5-6 dimensions and the Void
• A side effect of a past rejoining, Like an attempt by the Ascians to rejoin led to some parts of the world winding upon the First without being disintegrated into Aether. However this does raise further question as the world in question is that of Nier.
  • Another possibility is that the robots were like aumarot, a recreating of a rejoined world, but that also begs the question of "why would an Ascian (especially if we're left to assume only the Unsundered are capable of such a feat, OTOH Lahabrea was in charge of weapons IIRC, so I can see him having an interest in killer robots) want to recreate YoHRa...twice over?"
• A dream. The most cliched cop-out but also likely the other viable way of reconciling the lore with the raid series. And that has the issue of "why does the WoL and two unrelated dwarves have the exact same dream of advanced robots in Kholusa?"

As I understand it, Hildebrand is canon because the stories are being told by someone's point of view, and that person is greatly exaggerating the events. But I remember when I first started the Hildy quests and wondered how it was Hildebrand and his dad could run faster than a speeding bullet, jump tall buildings in a single bound, and were more powerful than a locomotive. They even put that Superman reference in the game.

It's definitely for comedy but I think the shenanigans have been exaggerated.

The Sorrow of Welyt

Valens makes me uncomfortable, like really uncomfortable, the way the scene is setup and what goes on just makes me instantly hate his guts.

Those 3 children are there so he can abuse them and that is after he has his way with the woman. No doubt all of Gauis kids went through the same treatment and why they are willing to fuse with the cores killing themselves because the alternative to them is Valens which is just No.

No joke I wished we see more Legatus like Regula van Hydros but he very much seems the exception and a far flung one at that, heck I would've taken a subtle manipulator who continuously coerced people into doing things over what we got with Valens.

Kudos to the team they know how to make people hate a character when they want.

The fight was fun enough but I wish Regula van Hydros got more and the fact his data was used with the worst weapon and used by the worst pilot is disappointing to say the least.

We have fought 2 other Legatus and seems like we have to weapons left so will it be Zenos then Gaius or Gaius then Zenos or will they through a curve ball and have Valens be one, though I suspect his story will be he will pilot the last weapon which'll be Zenos and Zenos goes murder happy for Senpai again.

The area is lovely, though one of the npcs talks about an imperial still being around, I wonder which one and if one of Gaius's kids