What would you guys think about getting more Dynamic, "Combo" abilities?

[ForteNightshade]

So ... Don't? From the start I've suggested it as an OPTION. Something that we can choose to use or not, at our own discretion and for our own needs.

You don't like condensed combos? Cool. Don't use it.
I want to condense some to save some keybinds? Cool, i can.

You don't lose anything for me to gain the option of condensing certain actions into singular keybinds.

The issue then becomes will it remain comfortably optional? Take Paladin at the moment. If they added four new abilities without removing any, then it'll start to squeeze space for players who prefer not condensing their abilities into one button—effectively forcing them to unless they want have rather awkward keybinds.

So yes, we do lose something for you gaining this option. Hence the push back against it.

If we had my suggestion, my DRG main rotation would go from 1 2 3 Q E, 8 9 0 E Q down to 1 1 1 Q E, 2 2 2 E Q with oGCDs between as normal. At no point ever, for any reason would i even consider doing that out of order.

Actually, your Dragoon rotation would likely become 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 1. If PvP is anything to go by, Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust were also nestled into a singular button. respectively. Of course, if they allowed you the option you could customize it to your preference. Alas, I somehow doubt they'll allow that freedom.

As for Raiden Thrust. That isn't the same. Raiden is a direct upgrade over True Thrust. While yes, it technically combos off a finished Fang or Wheeling, you shouldn't be missing your positionals often enough to ever notice.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Doesn't address the dull tedium of current healer gameplay consisting of 2 buttons being pressed infinitely, or a single one if you're in an AoE situation. It also removes and/or limits a degree of control players have over their rotations, for those that have them. To remove that fine nuance and that bit of depth for current healer-level gameplay and that sort of rigidity is absurd to me.

Yes, healer gameplay can be tedious, but when you're supposed to pay attention to what the boss is doing and everyone's healths, simpler gameplay for a healer can be a little more welcome...


And I fail to see what control you'd lose over a rotation with condensed combo buttons, they'd still function the same way the weaponskills currently do, they just won't be in 3 separate buttons (or 5 in the case of DRG).
Anything that doesn't interrupt the combo still wouldn't interrupt it, and in a case like MNK, it would realistically be 3 buttons that just change based on your Stance than full combos...

[Canada_bangs]

I'm not the OP. Am i not allowed to suggest things?

Also, where did you get 25 cycling skills from?
If we had my suggestion, my DRG main rotation would go from 1 2 3 Q E, 8 9 0 E Q down to 1 1 1 Q E, 2 2 2 E Q with oGCDs between as normal. At no point ever, for any reason would i even consider doing that out of order.

Of course there would be limits on what can be condensed. Unrelated skills would obviously not just suddenly be welded together.

Didn't consider needing to spell that out.

Edit: I feel like i need to remind some of you that the game already does what i suggest allowing us to do at our discretion on Dragoon with Raiden Thrust overwriting True Thrust. Among other skills.

It doing that for that one example is abit different then making all the combos work that way. You're going into issues with balancing because it wouldn't just be putting combos together. Alot more work would have to be done to even think of doing that. It's not legos. Least I hope not. And that still wouldn't address when they add more moves anyway. space is only one issue they have to deal with when it comes to balancing and new skills vs updating and removing skills. Heck even the animations would need to be changed to a degree and that alone is a bit of an ask. animation isn't as simple as people think it is. It's not as simple as letting us change our UI... and even that from what I've been told is harder then it should be.Tera is a good example on that... their UI code is so messed up that even the thought of moving something as tiny as a controller icon crashes things on a massive scale. It's why on PS4 and Xbone they had to completely revamp it. damning it to be forever different then it's PC version.

[CaptainLagbeard]

It was hyperbole to express how silly the concept was. Sorry you've taken it literally.

DRG is heavily rigid, yes. That said, True Thrust is the jumping off point for 2 different chains. Your current example is impossible due to this. In addition, it's entirely missing Raiden Thrust. Perhaps you've not played it in a while?

Regardless, there are instances beyond the most rigid rotation in the game, such as SAM. Hakaze as the starting point allows you to enter into 3 different combos, each doing something different. This allows for one to make snap decisions, such as going to Yuki early to take up your filler GCDs, or altering the overall flow on the fly to better work with the situation, or even just Ad Hok SAM in general. With a 1-2-3 system, this becomes impossible. Or do you propose players keep 3 separate instances of Hakaze on their bar? Or that, in order for your "option" to work, you would basically need to switch SAM over to the current PvP-style GCDs. Not sure how happy all the SAM players will be to have Midare nerfed because you reach it 2 GCDs earlier every time.

But then I didn't think I'd need to spell out the ramifications for you.

While mildly redundant, for SAM I would have 3 Hakaze buttons that then change into the second (and third moves) of respective combos upon using any of them. Rather than having 6 separate buttons all of the weaponskills. Similarly for 2 Fugas for the two AoE combos.

[Sylve]

The issue then becomes will it remain comfortably optional? Take Paladin at the moment. If they added four new abilities without removing any, then it'll start to squeeze space for players who prefer not condensing their abilities into one button—effectively forcing them to unless they want have rather awkward keybinds.

So yes, we do lose something for you gaining this option. Hence the push back against it.

You mean those same people who proclaim they have tons of free space on their bars?

The alternative is constant pruning of the jobs to give us anything new at all.

Lets take Black Mage, Ley Lines and BtL. For what reason is BtL a separate keybind? You can never use BtL without first placing LL and you can never cast LL while LL itself is on cooldown. They're 2 separate buttons for no purpose whatsoever.
MCH and Wildfire is also a good example. First use throws it out, second use manually detonates it. There being no reason for them being separate keybinds, so they aren't. Meanwhile, Queen and Overdrive are separate buttons, despite having virtually identical functionality in practice as compared to Wildfire and Detonate.

You also admit in your post that without some form of change, be it outright removal of abilities via pruning or condensing combos, keybinds are going to get more awkward when more skills are added.

At the very least, giving the ability to manually condense things at our leisure allows them to add new skills while leaving it up to the individual player how they go about putting that new skill into their hotbar.
If at some point in the future such condensing or pruning is required to fit everything into our hotbars, if things stay as they are there will be no choice for you. You will have to accept whatever SE decides to do in order to make new abilities fit.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Take, for example, current SAM. Hakaze is GCD 1 for 3 combo trees, with each tree doing something very specific. In order for the 1-2-3 system to work, you'd need to condense these into 3 buttons as Midare requires 3 Sen and the 3 Sen are symbolic to what Midare is. If that were to happen, SAM players could no longer use Hakaze as the primary jumping off point for combos, meaning that specific snap judgments can no longer be made. We'd be locked into a combo set the moment we press a button. As a direct example, in some fights I need to float Hakaze into Midare, Higabana, or something else. My next button depends on what I need done. Do I need a Shifu Refresh? Jinpu? Or can I Yuki safely and get through the filler GCDs early? With the proposed system, this sort of decision making is removed, and thus flexibility, depth. Definitely not worth it imo.

The only solution is to make each combo a 2-button combo, but then that requires rebalancing, such as nerfing Midare due to getting 1 extra each 24 GCDs (roughly, I think that'd be 1.2). But then SAM loses a bit of that "heavy single hit" identity, which is a big loss since, well, that's SAM.

A lot of players might not see that sort of depth and flexibility, admittedly. But removing the possibility, harming the job's identity, or both would definitely hurt the job for me. SAM is a really fun class that has a lot of depth under the surface. I don't feel it's appropriate for it to be removed or harmed just because some players want to press 1-3 buttons over and over. There are better ways to deal with button bloat, such as consolidating buttons that are always used in tandem (queen + detonate, Summon Bahamut + Enkindle Bahamut, Third Eye + Seigan + remove the self heal because it's literally useless) and buttons that shouldn't really exist (Bliz 1 > 3, Fire 2 > Flare) that should be implemented first.

Look, you wouldn't be locked into a full 3 hit combo by initiating one of them, they all start with Hakaze, so using any of the 3 combos WOULD still be possible after a first hit of Hakaze... But there's no reason for Shifu and Kasha to be two separate buttons, or Jinpu and Gekko to be two separate buttons.

It would literally function the exact same, it would just have less buttons to press.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

Look, you wouldn't be locked into a full 3 hit combo by initiating one of them, they all start with Hakaze, so using any of the 3 combos WOULD still be possible after a first hit of Hakaze... But there's no reason for Shifu and Kasha to be two separate buttons, or Jinpu and Gekko to be two separate buttons.

It would literally function the exact same, it would just have less buttons to press.

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

[CaptainLagbeard]

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

How hard it is to recognize that there are divergent combos in the game? Do you want to have to put the same attack twice in your hotbar and have to figure out which one leads to which second attack?

[WigglesTheWiggly]

"Look, I don't care to discuss how hard it would be to program it. I just want it, period."

How hard is it to program the game to recognize that an attack was used and that you can move to a second attack in a combo? I dunno.

Exactly and we already have such systems baked into both PvP and a few PvE skills. I doubt it'd be that difficult to tweak seeing as we already have modifiable systems in place to accomplish what's generally being asked for by a number of us.