Thread: DRK QOL changes for 5.4

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I like how the thread went from a suggestion to start unifying the discussion of meaningful changes to DRK to bring back some identity, to one guy acting like Charlie Day in front of that conspiracy board. "DRK didn't get any changes? ITS THOSE DAGGUM WARRIORS AGAIN"

On topic, I think the two aspects that really harm DRK is both its bad ability placement while leveling, and how it devolves in the endgame into just WAR but shields. And unfortunately, I don't think they're gonna revamp DRK in ShB, when we had a ninja overhaul and a monk revamp is in the way: there's only so much time in a patch cycle, and we likely have another expansion on the way soon too.

I don't know why do you need to give the attention when it's just "one guy conversations" but the rest of the threads is fine. Unless it's your habit to pick on a certain spot. My fight is with Xtrasweettea not you but if want to join then I'm not say no. Probably shouldn't tho.

Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

The entire thread is you white knighting for a video game job, getting what can be only described as "unreasonably disgruntled" at someone who made the entirely reasonable observation of "dark knights were comparing themselves only to warriors (which they were, I was raiding at the time) so SE made them more like warriors". You've taken the thread so far off the rails with your blind Warrior hatred that the train is in the next city over.

If it's the entry thread then why is there other 4 comments with a discussion that separate from me?

Also

Show me the proof that

"dark knights were comparing themselves only to warriors (which they were, I was raiding at the time) so SE made them more like warriors".

FFS this back and forth argument is ridiculous.
Both of you are being stubborn and both of you are being intentionally antagonistic towards the other.

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

snip

You are right in your initial assertion that much of the reason that DRK is the way it is in its current incarnation is due to the community and there too often being a lack of sensible, thought out feedback.
I'm going to be brutally honest, too many players seem to lack the capacity to grasp the intricacies of game-play systems like job design or lack the temperament to see past their own self -imposed blinders due to stubborn arrogance. It's much like a modern example of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. Too often feedback is based off of emotional snap judgments, bandwagoning or other shallow reasonings, instead of taking the time to actually try to think on the meaningful details of problems and solutions. That is why in the past there was so much feedback for DRK that basically pointed to WAR and said "see what they have, give us that". That is why we still keep getting feedback that basically boils down to rolling back DRK to a previous version while ignoring the overarching changes and general evolution of tanks in general. That is why you get some players that argued for changes like we got and now are ranting about those very same changes and angrily demanding to go back to the very state that they previously argued against. Far too few try to put the thought and mental mileage in on their feedback; breaking down the nuances of the perceived problems to get to the root of the issues and instead want to just burn the whole thing down, looking at aspects of other jobs or previous versions of a job that seem like good potential alternatives and then trying to dig deeper as to why those things are fun or work to then build from that and instead just point to that other job and demand to be given exactly what they have.
People clamor for quick and easy answers, but easy answers tend to be fool's gold, glittery and shiny from afar but then when you get it in hand and can take a closer look, you realize it's not what you actually wanted and is relatively worthless.

Now that I have seemingly been pretty harsh towards the community, I'd like to soften the blow a bit.
While the transgressions gone into above are a problem with the community, they are not reflective of all of the community. Of course much of the community do not post on the forums or tend to not engage in such threads, so those that do are already a smaller portion of the whole.
Then among that portion there is, has and hopefully always will be a group of forum posters that actually are thoughtful, thorough and measured. Unfortunately said group tends to often get overshadowed by the more reactionary crowd and even get denounced, being called all sorts of dismissive labels such as "elitists" or being told that they don't care or were trying to hurt this or that job because they didn't immediately jump on the emotion-fueled bandwagon. Trying to be a voice of reason here on the forums, or really anywhere in life, is exhausting and more often then not tends to burn people out to where they no longer want to bother and simply walk away to leave people to their own devices and to suffer the inevitable consequences.
It also needs to taken into account that much of the posts and commentary in question on these forums and it seems especially regarding DRK, tends to be a small group of players that like to make a lot of noise. They post over and over, thread after thread, comment after comment, the same sort of stuff, often in concentrated bursts that crop up regularly. This attention seeking then tends to make the entirety of DRK posters look bad as a whole through association because when people see another DRK topic come up, they immediately roll their eyes and think "oh great another one of these", or if a sensible DRK discussion does somehow get going it can be expected that soon enough one of these posters will come in and blow the discussion up and derailing any meaningful discourse.

TLDR: We are our own worst enemies. Think before you speak (or type), I mean really actually think. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. Ignore the clowns that just want to turn everything into a circus.
* I'm using the general you above in the TLDR.

Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

snip

You are partially right that there has indeed been a history of some WAR players coming into DRK discussions and being intentionally antagonistic. This has been happening since Heavensward and was happening before that in ARR but to Paladin.
However, this has not been the WAR playerbase as a whole, not even close, and so painting with such broad strokes and making out "WAR mains" as a whole to be a bunch of jerks out to get you and other DRK players is both inaccurate and unfair.
There are many WAR players that make good points on things regarding DRK and many actually support and argue for DRK changes being asked for. The posters that tend to come in and crap all over anything DRK related tend to be a very small group that, judging by what they post and how they post, seem to be more just individuals that like to be condescending provocateurs that get people riled up. The fact that many of these poster seem to have gravitated to WAR as their preferred job is notable but entirely circumstantial.
It also can't be ignored that there has also been a history of some DRK players going into threads on other tanks and just going off on rants in them and trying to turn the thread into another DRK thread. PLD players have done it too. There is plenty of blame to go around from all sides.
Lastly, just because someone disagrees with you on something DRK related doesn't mean they are trying to tear down DRK as a whole. I disagree with plenty of stuff put out there regarding DRK and I most definitely support changes for DRK, perhaps just not your or some other peoples' changes. So I think you really need to slow your roll and drop the anti-WAR rhetoric, it doesn't help you or anybody else and just clutters the forums with pointless arguments and tribalism.

TLDR: Haters gonna hate, but the amount that aren't haters tend to be greater.

Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Haha, no worries. It was just as much for my own sanity as I really like to read other peoples' thoughts and opinions on things but I despise bickering.
Thank you for realizing what was happening and deciding to pump the brakes on it and please feel free to keep posting in this or whatever thread you so choose. You have valid opinions on things that you should feel free to be able to express and points that other may read and agree with, for example I obviously agree with your opinion on DRK changes mostly being the result of player feedback and so if people don't like them we only have ourselves to blame.
We simply need to be careful about how we respond and interact with each other and to avoid these snowballing back and forth arguments, that is all.

It seem you're feeling good with that praise

but while you're at it

Please show me the source for your claim that "DRK changes mostly being the result of player feedback and so if people don't like them we only have ourselves to blame."

Because I don't remember asking for a watered down IL and a this complicated version of blood weapon. I don't remember asking for the removal of other good thing either.

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

DRK is in the state it is in because the community made it that way, and the community still hasn’t accepted any responsibility for making DRK the way it is. Yes, it is your fault why DRK the way it is.

First you say it my fault.

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Because I was there at the start of StB, where both DRKs and WARs united when both jobs needed major changes.

It was beautiful. You can look through that whole period of time and see the threads where there were discussions. Trolls of course occurred and dissenters, but that is normal.

Then SE made major changes to WAR and DRK got next to nothing, and everything went to pot quickly.

Both parties were not happy on the aggregate.

There were WARs that rubbed in the faces of DRKs. Which began the split of the community. I blame those WARs for not having empathy, but I also blame the WAR community for not condemning the behavior. Which is why I put myself as part of the blame for how DRK turned out today.

Though, the DRKs were no better. They reacted emotionally to the results from SE and some went into threads just to force the thread to change it into a DRK thread.

Here is an example of a thread that celebrated the fix WARs go, and a DRK main went in, all soured, and was trying to force the thread into a DRK thread:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...nges-are-great

My response to that sour DRK:

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Sweet Jesus, dude/lady/person-of-gender we get it! DRK got shafted compared to the almost complete job overhaul of WAR. What DRK received this patch seems very empty on paper, like SE only put in the most minimal amount of effort into making the job more usable.

I don’t see anyone really within the Tank subforums disagreeing with the fact that DRK is still “behind” balance-wise.
You don’t need to go into every WAR thread and/or non-DRK thread and try to make the conversation about DRK. We fucking get it. Overall balance sucks and we fucking get that too.

Go into the other DRK threads (including the thread you started) and discuss DRK issues there. It is getting to the point to where this is getting annoying (at least to me).

We tried having more discussions, but they always fell apart. DRKs either complaining and pointing at WARs or WARs reacting with “DRK did Ultimate, you’re fine,” meme.

The community is at the fault for DRK as it is, because we didn’t stop the focusing on WAR from both WARs and DRKs. Instead of trying to get DRK back to like it was in a prior expansion (like your threads tried), fingers were pointed at WAR.

By the way, when you state “fellow WAR” that means you have grouped me within that community and assumed my main. You jumped the gun, not me.

Now you contradicted yourself. You didn't come here to apologize too.

You show up to stop me but did you show up stop the WAR when they being a jerk?

if not how long you would like to keep blaming yourself?

DRK's fault is trying to compete with WAR for MT and TOP tank but they fail? what is the right course of action in stromblood then?

Let it stay like that? All you show me is how you told DRK to shut up and let the imbalance stay like that. And you're here doing the same thing again trying to tell me to quite down when the imbalance come back in shadowbringers.

BY the way, You can call anyone your fellow war/the job play but that doesn't make you main that job. Now look again who jump the gun.

If you put the same effort in trying to stop those bad WAR since this expansion start like how you put effort in trying to stop me right now I would've listened to you.