Rules of Primal summoning

[TheMightyMollusk]

Uh, no it was definitely the King Thordan of legend and his knights twelve that the Archbishop summoned.

Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

[HeulGDarian]

Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

he indeed knew that, after all he was the one keeping the false truth, what he summoned is the thordan he had fabricated for the people, he used the eye of nidhogg for aether.

[Seraphor]

Could it be that Thordan and KotR had been gradually tempered for years given use of and proximity to the Eye, combined with their own faith in the background?

Maybe Estinien would have been the same save for Dragoon training coming before any misplaced faith.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Estinien was influenced by the Eye he carries in the 30-50 dragoon quests, but he's able to control it after the player beats some sense into him. He only loses control later as a result of the combination of both Eyes, still being covered in Nidhogg's blood (seriously, did nobody ever just hose him down?), and letting his guard down; even then, we manage to save him again later after the Final Steps of Faith. Still, you can't beat tempering out of someone, so it seems draconic influence works by different rules.

Might explain why the Knights brought Haldrath's corpse with the second Eye still embedded in it to Azys Lla rather than just taking the Eye itself, though. Better safe than sorry.

[Dragonexx]

Summoning a primal requires an honest belief in the being one is trying to summon. The Archbishop knew the truth about the original King Thordan. He knew that the King abandoned his crown after the murder of Ratatoskr and the theft of Nidhogg's eyes. He can't have intended to summon the original, because he knew that the popular image of King Thordan was a lie.

The Knights are a weird case, because we see three of them transform into their primal forms in the Vault (and a fourth afterwards, when he kills Haurchefant), quite a while before the fight in Azys Lla. Whatever they were doing, either it wasn't tied to Thordan to begin with and he just empowered them, or they had summoned Thordan earlier and gained their own transformations, but wanted the power in Azys Lla to make Thordan even stronger. If the latter is the case, then it's entirely possible that Archbishop Thordan was tempered before we ever even met him. But, see above.

We can see from Satasha (Hard) that primals can grant their tempered subjects new powers and transformations, so I just assume that's the case with the Knights of the Round.

[Ultimatecalibur]

We can see from Satasha (Hard) that primals can grant their tempered subjects new powers and transformations, so I just assume that's the case with the Knights of the Round.

That seems to be just what happens to living beings when overaspected with various forms of aether. What happened to Captain Madison and crew was the water aether equivalent of being turned into a Sineater.

[Dragonexx]

That seems to be just what happens to living beings when overaspected with various forms of aether. What happened to Captain Madison and crew was the water aether equivalent of being turned into a Sineater.

Well, I don't see any reason why those processes have to be mutually exclusive.

[LineageRazor]

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

[HeulGDarian]

If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

Thats not how it works. Even the ancients with their massive amounts of mana could not summon a soul, its in fact the one and only thing arcanima cant do. Im pretty sure you misread the story youre mentioning so i will link it again for you and also copy the thing i assume you remember.


i just realised i had already posted this pls check the prior page in order to see the link and text

[HeulGDarian]

If you mean you can't have summon a Primal while the same Primal is already active, then yeah, the story seems to indicate that's the case. I don't think there's been any in-game support to the idea that trying to resummon a Primal that's currently already summoned will increase its power, but it seems reasonable; more prayer and faith equals more power.

Imprisoning the Triad was one goal, yes, but I'm pretty sure the Allagans also wanted to tap their power, much as they did on a larger scale with Bahamut later.

I initially mistook "You can't summon the same primal twice." as meaning consecutively. That is, summon Ifrit, Ifrit is killed, you can never summon him again. That's obviously not true, as the original Hard Mode and Extreme Mode trials were exactly that: the same primal summoned again and again, each time with more resources (first, additional crystals, then additional crystals and beastman sacrifices).

In regards to the "brain damaged WoL" theory, the devs DID say that a soul of sorts is called into the Primal from the aether when it is summoned, and this might have an affect on shaping the Primal's appearance. Assuming that the Lifestream of the First is a sundered copy of that of the Source, it is very unlikely that the same Primal souls would be available. Of course, now that we've done our thing, shiny new Primal souls may now be inhabiting the First's Lifestream, so future summonings of those Primals on the First could well look identical to the ones we summoned, even if summoned by someone who had never seen the original. (Such a thing is unlikely, of course, unless Ryne decides to spread the word of exactly how we restored the Emptiness to life.)

in order to not make the last post way to big ill answer the double summoning here.

We do have an example of double summoning but it isnt something that goes through your mind at first, the egis.
5.3 confirmed that creation magic is indeed the progenitor of what we now know as summoning. So the theory of arcanima is creation magic is confirmed.
The egis not only have they been summoned at the same time as a primal, during the ex and hard versions who back in arr werent a story they were events that actually happened, but also they have been summoned by others during the story about the 3 people that were taught summoning.