Rules of Primal summoning

[Seraphor]

There are a couple things I feel I've taken for granted, and can't remember where exactly they came from, so I was wondering if anyone can remember if there's anything in game that supports this.

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.
This is the idea behind the Allagans sealing the Warring Triad alive to prevent the Meracydians from resummoning them, right?

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.
Ysayle could control Shiva, Zenos via the Resonance could control Shinryu, but as for the rest, did they effectively temper themselves?
Which box does Ryne fall into?

Do I have this correct as per canon, or have I inferred sonething not explicitly stated in game?

[Jandor]

These are both things that I also think are the case. Although yeah, now that you mention it, I can't say I'm exactly sure as to why I think that.

Both just seem kind of obvious I guess?

The Allagan sealing would be virtually pointless if you could summon multiple copies of the same primal, so I'd say it's basically confirmed that you can't.

We saw Ysayle control the Shiva incarnation, and Zenos does mention the echo can be used to force our will on to a primal. Whether we can go as far as to say that people without the echo that self-primal definitely end up self-tempering is rather ambiguous though. The goals of Thordan and Yotsuyu aligned pretty well with their respective primal forms, so it's hard to say exactly how much they were in control or not.
You'd think that'd be something the Scions would have looked into before letting Ryne have a bash at being a primal.

[Saix027]

These are both things that I also think are the case. Although yeah, now that you mention it, I can't say I'm exactly sure as to why I think that.

Both just seem kind of obvious I guess?

The Allagan sealing would be virtually pointless if you could summon multiple copies of the same primal, so I'd say it's basically confirmed that you can't.

We saw Ysayle control the Shiva incarnation, and Zenos does mention the echo can be used to force our will on to a primal. Whether we can go as far as to say that people without the echo that self-primal definitely end up self-tempering is rather ambiguous though. The goals of Thordan and Yotsuyu aligned pretty well with their respective primal forms, so it's hard to say exactly how much they were in control or not.
You'd think that'd be something the Scions would have looked into before letting Ryne have a bash at being a primal.

You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

[Gula]

You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

The WoL isn't always around to solve people's problems. And you underestimate a zealot's faith. The anata queen was so far gone that even if the WoL tried to temper it at that moment, she could still attack or try to will Lakshmi to become stronger. Seeing their god defeated does not defeat the people who summoned it or else she wouldn't have tried again. And if you meant make peace to the people through their god, well, the image is already set. They would know something was up if, say, Ravana god of war and conquest suddenly desired peace.

[Jandor]

You would imagine if Zenos can do it why can't we as most powerful WoL/WoD with probably one fo the strongest echo due our status, just let us take over Primals and make peace with them that way, gives the Scions something to do also finally, everyoen with Echo take over one, end of those conflicts, tho then we are probably tempted ourself by Hydalin already so. *shrugs*

I imagine if Zenos could do it, then theoretically so can we. Problem is that we don't know how to do it, and Zenos didn't seem very interested in teaching us.

[Vyrerus]

Ryne has the Echo, she gained it from Minfilia. She lost control due to the aspects of Hydaelyn coming forth so strongly that she was essentially two primals at once.

In the cases of Yotsuyu/Tsukuyomi and Thordan VII/King Thordan, they literally bonded with the primal essence itself, so when you defeated them they died. The difference for those with the Echo is that their physical body remains separate from the primal entity. At least, that's how I took it.

[Brightamethyst]

1. You can't summon the same primal twice.
If Ifrit has been summoned, and you try to summon Ifrit again, then the first Ifrit will simply receive all of the additional 'prayer/faith/belief' and grow in power instead.

Maybe. Primal summoning is pretty vague (as is magic in general.) Magic in the XIV universe seems to pretty much all powerful and theoretically anything is possible if you want it badly enough and have enough aether. Everything else is just philosophy and technique. Rules like "can only summon one instance of a primal at a time" seem to be more of a belief than actual unbreakable rules. Someone who didn't know about that 'rule' would probably be exempt from it and could summon as many Ifrits as they wanted.

2. For 'self primals', e.g. Shiva, Thordan, Tsukuyomi, and I guess Shinryu via Zenos, plus Ryne' Shiva too come to think of it... the Echo is instrumental in controling it.

Probably. Anyone without the temping immunity of the Echo (or resonance in the case of Zenos) would likely fuse with the primal completely and die when it's defeated (Thordan, Yotsuyu.) Ryne has the Echo so she came out of the summoning mostly unharmed.

[HeulGDarian]

Primal summoning works exactly how the arcanist/summoner summons work.


Summoning requires 2 things, Aether and a piece of info.
In the case of the carbuncles the info is the gems , in the case of an egi/demi the info is the essence of a primal.
In shadowbringers we learn that to summon something you just need aether. As long as you have aether you can summon anything, this is how the tribes summoned the primals they simply prayed and used aether in the form of crystals. The reason it is harmfull and why we are unable to do it by just thinking is cause there is not enough aether around, The aether has been split into 13 different worlds/reflections . As for the echo in 5.2 we learned that the echo isnt hydaleyns gift it is our own innate ability from when we were whole , it is activated by simply witnessing a catastrophe , the reason it got attributed to hydaleyn is cause with the echo the first thing you hear is hydaleyns call , which is something hydaleyn does all the time its just that only people with the echo can hear it.

Id like to also say that every single ascian is an arcanist. Arcanima is efforts to express the nature of aether in mathematical terms that gave rise to the exacting science that we practice today. These definitive formulas are represented by "arcane geometries".
That means an arcanist can do literally everything, arcanist is to the world the equivalent of what a programmer is to a computer.

[Jandor]

Is summoning just advanced arcanima though?

Magic can't create anything truly alive, even the Ancients never figured out that trick, and the actual primals seem pretty alive to me. You telling me that the glee Susano felt as he battled us was fake? I'm not buying that

I think the summoning that the Ascians go around teaching is more akin to necromancy than creation magic, or even arcanima. I reckon that when the Amalj'aa summon Ifrit, they keep pulling the same poor long dead soul out of the lifestream and chucking him into a new body they make for him. In theory they could just use all those crystals to create a giant glorified egi, but without the soul to make it truly alive, it'd still be more akin to a pet than a deity.

Plus, teaching a broken form of arcanima that messes with circle of life seems like exactly the sort of asshole behaviour that the Ascians would engage in.

[HeulGDarian]

Is summoning just advanced arcanima though?

Magic can't create anything truly alive, even the Ancients never figured out that trick, and the actual primals seem pretty alive to me. You telling me that the glee Susano felt as he battled us was fake? I'm not buying that

I think the summoning that the Ascians go around teaching is more akin to necromancy than creation magic, or even arcanima. I reckon that when the Amalj'aa summon Ifrit, they keep pulling the same poor long dead soul out of the lifestream and chucking him into a new body they make for him. In theory they could just use all those crystals to create a giant glorified egi, but without the soul to make it truly alive, it'd still be more akin to a pet than a deity.

Plus, teaching a broken form of arcanima that messes with circle of life seems like exactly the sort of asshole behaviour that the Ascians would engage in.

no summon is alive , its like the shadows under the sea , they talk they act human, the guy that was ehmets closest friend is the most noticable example of they are just ideas but they seem alive, he himself said the only reason he is more conscious is cause ehmet thought that he would be able to. another thing that further proves it is the lore of why carbuncles act how they act , the carbuncles are able to fight only cause of our iron will, tatarus carbuncle run off from her cause she herself was afraid.
There is however a piece of lore that connects the dead and the arcanima, the devs had given 4 or 5 short stories , one of those stories was about how a spirit that was afraid to pass away got into one of the constructs giving it its sentiments , ehmet was then called to exorcise it. funnily enough one other story gave the answer of how miasma works.
Oh also it has been disputed that they are raising the dead , the lore about bahamut ends with meeting his sister , she herself tells us that she was the one who helped the ascians summon bahamut and that what is summoned resembles not what bahamut was , it is simply a travestry that laid waste to everything , its something she regrets so much that she is staying in her prison willingly as punishment. Oh almost forgot shiva is also another example hraesvelgr says it himself what ysayle has summoned isnt the actual shiva.

Ok last edit. I should remind that the ones that taught how to summon primals not only to the tribes but also to the allagans were the ascians , to be more specific lahabrea taught the arr tribes ehmet taught the allagans. least we forget susanno wasnt the first that looked like he had emotions. If i remember in stormblood susanoo was summoned by complete accident, the kojin hunt for treasure as a form of worship and us bringing the other half of something inside there led to the summoning, lakshimi on the other hand was totally intentional , twice no less, shinryu cause of the massacre and the eyes of nidhogg , and i dont remember tsukuyomi. The 4 lords werent primals.