Thread: 5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is mostly rambling that misses the point entirely. None of Coincounters cues indicate the attack will be a 360 degree one hit kill, so he could have 100 different colors, stances and cast bars going off before the attack and it wouldn't matter; you still wouldn't know what to do. If you don't know what to do you can't react, so you have no choice but to die.

Also, there is no "undergeared," dungeons have a minimum ilvl and if you meet it then you're appropriately geared. It's a 1 hit kill if you're not synched (overgeared).

Also, in most cases SE does make up for the limitations of MMORPG gameplay, but in Coincounters case they failed.

Oh look, more opinions presented as facts.

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Oh look, more opinions presented as facts.

None of that is really opinion. The basic tenets of good and bad gameplay development practices are already established. I didn't invent them, but I do believe in them. SE has always struggled a bit with gameplay, so a few failures aren't overly surprising or damning. All I was really doing was commending SE for addressing Coincounter.

What's entertaining about this is the handful of people on this forum who will defend bad gameplay to the death.

This MSQ trial boss in a nutshell: '' GRIFFIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITH! ''.

Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is mostly rambling that misses the point entirely. None of Coincounters cues indicate the attack will be a 360 degree one hit kill, so he could have 100 different colors, stances and cast bars going off before the attack and it wouldn't matter; you still wouldn't know what to do. If you don't know what to do you can't react, so you have no choice but to die.

Also, there is no "undergeared," dungeons have a minimum ilvl and if you meet it then you're appropriately geared. It's a 1 hit kill if you're not synched (overgeared).

Your point is:
1. I don’t know what attacks will “1 shot me”
2. I don’t know what the attack does, who the attack does it to, where does the attack occur, when does it occur, how does it occur

The answer to your points are trial-and-error. Which most of us had explained to you, but you are choosing to either not getting it or purposely ignoring it because this keeps the conversation within your frame and keeps you on a theoretical high ground.

My “rambiling” is an explanation on how much SE gives the player so the player can make a decision. This game never tells you if it is a “one-shot” outright. For most of the names of the attacks in this game, they are pretty self-descriptive. Coincounter has simple attack names.

• 10-Tonze Swipe: You should be able to pick up just from the word “swipe” that it would hit in front of the boss. You swipe in front of you in real life. 10 Tonze sounds close to 10 Tons. This will hurt some.
• 100-Tonze Swipe: Again, basic high-school English states this will occur in front of the boss, but 100 is more than 10, so it might hurt more
• 100-Tonze Swing: swing is 360, you swing your arms around your body, again high-school English. That 100 Tonze value again, seems like it will hurt, better move.
• Glower: comes with 5 cues and a walking animation. Hits far away. This will be the only one that is not intuitive… but it is also the one that deals the second to smallest amount of damage as compensation

.

SE does enough hand-holding already. How much more do you need? I am asking you as in “you” proper, because this has to nothing to do with new players and everything about Goji.

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

SE does enough hand-holding already. How much more do you need? I am asking you as in “you” proper, because this has to nothing to do with new players and everything about Goji.

Giving you a way to react to your opponents attacks isn't hand holding, it's just the absolute most basic part of designing combat in a game. Every attack has a tell and a correct response; you just have to notice the tell and react correctly or you die. SE just forgot the part about adding a tell and went straight to you dying. They forgot step 1 in the 2 step process of constructing a competent fight.

I mean, forgetting that whole step is a mistake you RARELY see in games; I think you'd all be hard pressed to find another game with a mechanic that works like Coincounters. Still, I'm merely commending SE for deciding to address it.

The monster has an animation for every one of his attacks. Stop expecting the floor to tell you where to stand D;

Originally Posted by Roda

The monster has an animation for every one of his attacks. Stop expecting the floor to tell you where to stand D;

By the time the animation happens it's too late to do anything about it. The boss does also have a cast bar and a stance, but neither gives you any idea where you would need to stand to avoid the attack.

It's like I said, there's no tell.

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Giving you a way to react to your opponents attacks isn't hand holding, it's just the absolute most basic part of designing combat in a game. Every attack has a tell and a correct response; you just have to notice the tell and react correctly or you die. SE just forgot the part about adding a tell and went straight to you dying. They forgot step 1 in the 2 step process of constructing a competent fight.

I mean, forgetting that whole step is a mistake you RARELY see in games; I think you'd all be hard pressed to find another game with a mechanic that works like Coincounters. Still, I'm merely commending SE for deciding to address it.

Goji, you know what I meant about hand-holding. Don’t try to change the meanings of my words to keep your theoretical high-ground.

What you call a “tell” is a another visual cue. It is not the absolute cue. It is not the sole cue that tells people to react. It is one of the multiple cues that exists at the same time to provide an output to the player so the player can make a choice to do something with that output to create their own outcome. Whether that be moving or taking the hit in the case with Coincounter.

The didn’t “forget” the tell. If that were true, then they would have fixed that years ago. It was a design decision at the time.

You do not consider the fight complete because it is missing 1 out of 6 cues. Other people disagree.

I can easily find a game that has the exact same mechanic like Coincounter’s: FFXI. Every mob in that game has attacks that do not have a ground AOE marker to telegraph where that attack is going to hit. You only have three cues that something is going to happen. Sometimes mobs have an attack that can have multiple outcomes and you have no way to know what will happen. Goblin Bomb Toss is an example: can have three outcomes; a close range aoe that can deal high damage, a close range aoe that deals low damage, a self-inflicting attack that kills the goblin. FFXI still has players. That game isn’t dead.

I can name a whole franchise: Dynasty Warriors. The literal fast food of the musou genre has no indicators of where attacks will land. Lu Bu going is going to one-shot you and all you see is a change in animation and sound cue. Unless you have seen the attack before, you don’t know how the attack works. All you have is change in animation to look at from your enemy. Oh, and how musou attack works change in each installment. So what Lu Bu does in 5 isn't what he does in 6. You only have the option to run or block (in 7, 8, and 9 you have counters you can execute with one button).

Fallout 4: No AOE indicators. I guess I'll die then.

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Also, you need to get over the fact that I didn't bother with Alliance raids.

If you really think its your lack of alliance raid experience that causes me to call you unqualified to make these assertions I feel like maybe you should log off the forums and enjoy a few moments of introspection.

(Cause theres plenty more)

Can you imagine doing the new nier raid? There are so many things without blatant, orange floor indicators... how did any of us make it through?