5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

**Xtrasweettea** · 08-13-2020 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Youtube is required if you want to have a fair fight when you first encounter the boss. No way to read, react or adjust to it during the fight makes it a bad mechanic and a bad fight.

You all really need to try out some more gameplay oriented games. I feel like if this was anything other than an MMO community I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

**Goji1639** · 08-13-2020 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

**Iscah** · 08-13-2020 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If the Coincounter was a boss in a single-player game you would absolutely be learning from his physical tells without markers and probably without displayed attack names either. But you also probably wouldn't be trying to fight him while remembering to hit an arbitrary sequence of skills - you're more likely to have a simple attack button and maybe some gimmick tools, and less pressure to keep performing well so you don't let the team down. If you want to spend a few rounds just figuring out what the boss does, you're free to do so without wasting anyone's time.

The flipside of this is that the game has no obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, and death is absolutely a learning tool. If it throws something unrecognisable at you, you will probably die and then learn from that experience - first what to watch out for, then how to deal with it. You're doing this entirely on your own time and not inconveniencing anyone.

The expectations here are different. You don't want to let the group down, so you can't take the same amount of time and attention to learn on your own.

**Goji1639** · 08-13-2020 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Iscah

Snip

If Coincounter was a boss in a single player game, we would probably have a frame 1 active dodge ability with iframes that allows us to avoid attacks based on the enemies animations. If we had limited mobility and no iframes, like in an MMO, however, there absolutely should be markers indicating what we need to do if the attack can't be survived.

Also, no game has an obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, but there is an obligation to make it possible to do with the information available. If you fail it should be because you made a mistake; not because a mechanic wasn't possible with the knowledge and utilities the game provided.

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?

There's no way to know Coincounters attack hits 360 degrees until it's too late to do anything about it, and it kills you in one hit.

In Dark Souls you have frame 1 active dodge animations with iframes, so you can avoid attacks based on what the animation looks like. Since FFXIV has limited mobility and no iframes it needs to provide markers, or NOT 1 hit kill you, to create a mechanic that can be reacted to or adjusted for. If FFXIV fails to do either of those things then the mechanic is a failure of basic design principles.

**Xtrasweettea** · 08-13-2020 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

There's no way to know Coincounters attack hits 360 degrees until it's too late to do anything about it, and it kills you in one hit.

In Dark Souls you have frame 1 active dodge animations with iframes, so you can avoid attacks based on what the animation looks like. Since FFXIV has limited mobility and no iframes it needs to provide markers, or NOT 1 hit kill you, to create a mechanic that can be reacted to or adjusted for. If FFXIV fails to do either of those things then the mechanic is a failure of basic design principles.

It’s called trial-and-error, Game King. Something older games had you do plenty of.

Coincounter actually advertises what attack it will do based on its stance, the charge bar (which DS doesn’t have), the aura he makes, battle text box telling you, and on-screen text cues. That’s FIVE cues. If you cannot see something has changed with five cues, you deserve to be hit. Now with this giant red and orange marker, which now makes it six ways the game is telling you something big is coming.

Also, the charge is long, if you pay attention, you can get out of range in plenty of time. If you don’t move enough, yes you will get hit. The hitbox size is consistent, and even if you don’t know the exact pixel of distance you need, you know that the long armed large monster with giant mace is going to swing far, better make sure I go farther then that ASAP.

If you die, then you were undergeared. I have run AV plenty of times as a DPS and healer, with at-level gear, and managed to survive being hit.

SE gives the player enough to make up the shortcommings of a game that is multiplayer and all events are happening in real time. DS can do iframes with frame 1 active dodging. FFXIV cannot do that due to telecommunication limitations. DS isn’t bound to network environments and things like jitter or packet loss.

Before you cast your “New player” card for an attempt at sympathy, don’t bother. This game is super friendly to new players and is very forgiving all the way up through the main storyline. I’ve played other MMOs that actually were deadly to new players from the start and were not as forgiving as FFIXV. This includes FFXI.

**Goji1639** · 08-13-2020 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Snip

This is mostly rambling that misses the point entirely. None of Coincounters cues indicate the attack will be a 360 degree one hit kill, so he could have 100 different colors, stances and cast bars going off before the attack and it wouldn't matter; you still wouldn't know what to do. If you don't know what to do you can't react, so you have no choice but to die.

Also, there is no "undergeared," dungeons have a minimum ilvl and if you meet it then you're appropriately geared. It's a 1 hit kill if you're not synched (overgeared).

Also, in most cases SE does make up for the limitations of MMORPG gameplay, but in Coincounters case they failed.

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

If someone dislikes the XIV gameplay so much and hardly participates in it anyways maybe the game isn't for them.

I like the gameplay fine for what it is. Coincounters crap is 1 mechanic on 1 boss; fortunately design failure like this aren't too common in this game.

Also, you need to get over the fact that I didn't bother with Alliance raids.

**Veis_Alveare** · 08-13-2020 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is mostly rambling that misses the point entirely. None of Coincounters cues indicate the attack will be a 360 degree one hit kill, so he could have 100 different colors, stances and cast bars going off before the attack and it wouldn't matter; you still wouldn't know what to do. If you don't know what to do you can't react, so you have no choice but to die.

Also, there is no "undergeared," dungeons have a minimum ilvl and if you meet it then you're appropriately geared. It's a 1 hit kill if you're not synched (overgeared).

Also, in most cases SE does make up for the limitations of MMORPG gameplay, but in Coincounters case they failed.

Oh look, more opinions presented as facts.

**Xtrasweettea** · 08-13-2020 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is mostly rambling that misses the point entirely. None of Coincounters cues indicate the attack will be a 360 degree one hit kill, so he could have 100 different colors, stances and cast bars going off before the attack and it wouldn't matter; you still wouldn't know what to do. If you don't know what to do you can't react, so you have no choice but to die.

Also, there is no "undergeared," dungeons have a minimum ilvl and if you meet it then you're appropriately geared. It's a 1 hit kill if you're not synched (overgeared).

Your point is:
1. I don’t know what attacks will “1 shot me”
2. I don’t know what the attack does, who the attack does it to, where does the attack occur, when does it occur, how does it occur

The answer to your points are trial-and-error. Which most of us had explained to you, but you are choosing to either not getting it or purposely ignoring it because this keeps the conversation within your frame and keeps you on a theoretical high ground.

My “rambiling” is an explanation on how much SE gives the player so the player can make a decision. This game never tells you if it is a “one-shot” outright. For most of the names of the attacks in this game, they are pretty self-descriptive. Coincounter has simple attack names.

10-Tonze Swipe: You should be able to pick up just from the word “swipe” that it would hit in front of the boss. You swipe in front of you in real life. 10 Tonze sounds close to 10 Tons. This will hurt some.
100-Tonze Swipe: Again, basic high-school English states this will occur in front of the boss, but 100 is more than 10, so it might hurt more
100-Tonze Swing: swing is 360, you swing your arms around your body, again high-school English. That 100 Tonze value again, seems like it will hurt, better move.
Glower: comes with 5 cues and a walking animation. Hits far away. This will be the only one that is not intuitive… but it is also the one that deals the second to smallest amount of damage as compensation

.

SE does enough hand-holding already. How much more do you need? I am asking you as in “you” proper, because this has to nothing to do with new players and everything about Goji.

**Veis_Alveare** · 08-13-2020 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Also, you need to get over the fact that I didn't bother with Alliance raids.

If you really think its your lack of alliance raid experience that causes me to call you unqualified to make these assertions I feel like maybe you should log off the forums and enjoy a few moments of introspection.

(Cause theres plenty more)

Can you imagine doing the new nier raid? There are so many things without blatant, orange floor indicators... how did any of us make it through?

**Xtrasweettea** · 08-13-2020 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?

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