Y'shtola's "Marketing Armor"

[jameseoakes]

this ^^ also everyone seems to have forgotten about Meffrid but that is kinda understandable since he was just a minor character

Meffrid didn't really have character though the others did, also Meffrid was there mainly for cringe worthy character development of Lyse

[Saix027]

Death for the sake of just killing someone off for shock value adds nothing to the story. It's only enriching if it's meaningful. There's a reason people around here still bring up Haurchefant or Moenbryda or Papalymo but nobody ever mentions Conrad.

Conrad, i feel sorry for him, he worked so much only for Lyse to take his place for no reason, you knwo who would be more fitting? M'naago, she was his right hand yet reduced to some weekly custom delivery. It feels insulting towards that character without killing her, Conrad felt wasted to just give Lyse her purpose, i still not like her and glad we not see her anymore much.

M'nagoo was killed off in a writing way, forgotten and not important to anything meaningful anymore, that is another way to get rid of a character i guess.

[BlitzAceRush]

What you're essentially arguing is that you don't need to add death to make good writing, and perhaps a step further that adding death negatively impacts a story. For you, that may be the case, but that's just for you.

For people who are invested in the serious aspects of a story, it negatively impacts the story to know that there is no tension at all, because ultimately there is no risk, worry, or suspense. For instance, despite never having played FFX, having read the spoiler(I don't care about spoilers BTW), I have even less of a desire to play it due to knowing that there will never be a pivotal moment where someone makes a grave choice or pays the ultimate price.

As far as death being a quick and easy thing in writing... well, yeah. It's easy to write. It's not so easy for readers to get over though. It's quite divisive, because some readers feel betrayed when a character they love is no longer active in the story. So it's not cheap at all. It's actually quite costly, and most writers usually feel its weight.

As for death being pointless in a long running narrative... well... no. They rotate characters anyway due to wanting to focus more on particular ones per whatever are the writers' goals. Death is a way for them to basically martyr and venerate a character that is never going to be a major player in the story anymore. Hence the whole, heroic sacrifice trope. In this narrative that revolves around violence, combat, martial prowess, war, politics, national relations, and good vs. evil, it weakens the narrative for there to never be any major character death. It may as well be a game of bowling to the good guys, where the villains are just bowling pins that can talk and occasionally force gutter balls.

Obviously I agree they can't over do it, but it's really honestly under done. And the unrestrained use of fake-out deaths is all the more insulting to the audience as a compliment to this fact. Obviously, they try to get by on other vehicles of tension and other methods of raising the stakes, but nothing really does it like the threat of death or death itself. The biggest limiting factor on FFXIV's story is that even though we as the main protagonist are central, nothing bad can permanently befall us ever, due to the nature of MMOs. It falls to the NPCs.

I mean, I never once said I was speaking for anyone but myself, I lead my post with "I fully disagree with" and "I do not feel" even what you quoted was "I" so you felt the need to tell me I was speaking for me, when I was indeed speaking for me.

I never said death can't work or shouldn't be used I even stated that, I said it isn't needed to make a story with tension or seriousness.
You're making it sound like death is the only way to show any kind of meaningful consequence, that you can't be serious or real if someone doesn't die which I (speaking for me) disagree with.

Main character Jill makes a mistake and gives away the location of the village the party has been staying in, the bad guys attack and despite their best efforts the good guys lose.
1: Jill is killed and so is most of the villagers, the rest of the party is forced to flee.
2: Jill is saved by another member of the party, but they're wounded in the process, the villagers live but their whole village is burned to the ground as they escape.

In this example one has death, the other dosen't, but both can have serious, deep and meaningful consequences.

1: The party mourns Jill and laments her mistake and what their actions can cause if they're not careful, while giving them new cause to go after the bad guys.
2: Jill blames herself for what has happened, the party has to deal with one of their own seriously hurt as well as feeling responsible for the villagers having no home, realising how far their actions, choices and mistakes can reach.

I see neither of these as inferior to the other, even with my bias against death I can see how it can be done well, my point was simply that adding it doesn't suddenly make a story deep, meaningful and serious, nor is it required to achive weight, it's simply one of many ways to add gravity to a situation, not the only one.

[PeppermintBrown]

Conrad, i feel sorry for him, he worked so much only for Lyse to take his place for no reason, you knwo who would be more fitting? M'naago, she was his right hand yet reduced to some weekly custom delivery. It feels insulting towards that character without killing her, Conrad felt wasted to just give Lyse her purpose, i still not like her and glad we not see her anymore much.

M'nagoo was killed off in a writing way, forgotten and not important to anything meaningful anymore, that is another way to get rid of a character i guess.

Yeah. They really didn't have the time to develop Lyse properly into the role.

Maybe if half of the expansion wasn't off int he far east they could have made this work. But it came off as rushed, and as soon as he mentions grooming Lyse to be his successor when you come back to Gyr Abania it telegraphs his death way too hard.

[Vyrerus]

Meffrid didn't really have character though the others did, also Meffrid was there mainly for cringe worthy character development of Lyse

Conrad, i feel sorry for him, he worked so much only for Lyse to take his place for no reason, you knwo who would be more fitting? M'naago, she was his right hand yet reduced to some weekly custom delivery. It feels insulting towards that character without killing her, Conrad felt wasted to just give Lyse her purpose, i still not like her and glad we not see her anymore much.

M'nagoo was killed off in a writing way, forgotten and not important to anything meaningful anymore, that is another way to get rid of a character i guess.

Actually, Meffrid was Conrad's right hand and intended replacement. When he is killed by Fordola, that's for the development of Fordola, more than it is for Lyse. It shows that she's a superior fighter to the best the Resistance naturally has to offer, and also established the deep animosity that non-Imperial Ala Mhigans feel for her.

As for why M'naago didn't take Conrad's place, well, she's younger than Lyse and far less learned, having been a Resistance scout for only 5 years, and only being 22. Lyse is more worldly, did more by helping to liberate Doma, and is the daughter of Curtis Hext. Conrad's dying judgment was pretty sound for a dying man, if you ask me. Doesn't mean you have to like it, though.

[Vyrerus]

I

It's always death or the threat of it that puts tension in the air, at least with regards to stories that involve war or combat. You can make a tense story about piano recitals with a stringent mentor figure. Hell, you can write the extremes of just about any dang thing, and put some kind of tension into the air.

The thing about tensions outside of death is that they are usually far less permanent. Nothing bites as hard as losing someone forever.

1: Jill is killed
2: Jill is not

1: Other people have to make up for and get over the loss of Jill. One of them has to get over losing the love of their life. The blood of the villagers is on their hands. The blood of some of the party's family members are on their hands. They were the groups' in at the village. Overcoming the mental trauma, emotional trauma, and physical wounds is going to take time, and some won't recover. Those that do are galvanized to forge onward, to do better, to be better. Those that aren't show us the reality of many people who go to battle. That it's something that may ruin your life, if not take it. Those few who do come out the other end with stronger resolves still aren't sure if they can take on the bad guys.

2: Everybody's hurt. Homes are destroyed, but hey, you can replace those. Everyone has a shoulder to cry on, someone to lean on, and getting through the struggle is no harder than before once everything's healed up. Some crack and walk away, but at least they're walking away, instead of lying in another shallow, unmarked grave. The situation is dire, but it was merely that the bad guy got the drop on us, not that we weren't up to the task of defeating them. Jill and Co. will do much better next time.

While death's not the only way to add tension to the story, it ripples outwards into the story affecting nearly everything, whereas other vehicles for gravitas don't. Within the context of the story of FFXIV, while death is present, it is never present for those who are deemed to be the closest and strongest among us. The lack of death for these characters also ripples into the rest of the story, again, making the villains seem like all talk and no show.

There's a reason that character death is talked about for years and years and argued over if it's left the slightest bit ambiguous. Example: Spike Spiegel in Cowboy Bebop. It's this sort of thing that makes it a stronger, better element to use within a story, as well as why it's so commonly used. When death's used it doesn't necessarily make the story better, but it makes it more memorable, and memorable stories are the ones that get repeated.

[Yuella]

Lyse had been working with the resistance since the end of 2.55 so she's not a new face. She had the experience of working with Hien and learned from him. M'naago is probably not leader material. Besides she's only the leader of the resistance, not the leader of the whole alliance. Raubahn still called the shots up till the end.

[Stepjam]

I kinda agree that they won't kill her. She has become the mascot of the game, at least in other media.

More importantly, she's "died" nearly once per expansion, and it hasn't stuck once yet. Worst thing that has stuck was her blindness from the first time. It's practically a running joke at this point

[TheRealQuah]

Of course Y'shtola could be killed off despite her being the face of the game. You buy the game, she's still there for the first 3 expansions and the base game.

A TV series, no you couldn't really advertise your new season with a character that was killed off, but a game where you have to play through the whole story you can for sure. In fact, I'd argue the marketing would work much better if she did die, as it would provide a shocking story point.

Think GoT season 1.

[Hazama999]

(in 90's comic book font)
Patch 5.4: The Death of Y'shtola