Class Trees

[Mikey_R]

Then what is the point of having them on the same class? You have essentially made 2 different jobs and the only reason you want them together is so that they both get EXP. It really doesn't take long to level a job at all and consider how new jobs are introduced, they start at 20 levels below the expansion max level (excluding HW jobs). This means if you have a job that comes out in an expansion, and you haven't levelled the base class, you would have to start from level 1 and not the much higher level. I really do not see that as a valid reason to have splitting jobs.

The reason Summoners Physick gets so weak is because Physick's healing is based off of the jobs Mind Stat, not the intelligence stat. Obviously, Mind is not a Summoner's strong point, so much weaker heals. As for Vercure, that scales off of Intelligence.

[Eliadil]

For example, Arcanist has access to Physic, which is neat early on, but we know when it becomes Summoner it’s absolutely useless and therefore should no longer exist on Summoner.

They could just give a trait to SMN to make Physick scale with Intel instead of Mind, just like with RDM's VerCure. Then the spell would look suddenly much better, and SMN would be nerfed accordingly while keeping its identity.

[AceofRains]

Then what is the point of having them on the same class? You have essentially made 2 different jobs and the only reason you want them together is so that they both get EXP. It really doesn't take long to level a job at all and consider how new jobs are introduced, they start at 20 levels below the expansion max level (excluding HW jobs). This means if you have a job that comes out in an expansion, and you haven't levelled the base class, you would have to start from level 1 and not the much higher level. I really do not see that as a valid reason to have splitting jobs.

The reason Summoners Physick gets so weak is because Physick's healing is based off of the jobs Mind Stat, not the intelligence stat. Obviously, Mind is not a Summoner's strong point, so much weaker heals. As for Vercure, that scales off of Intelligence.

Sharing is exp is only one of the many good reasons to do it. Like I said earlier, the problem with a job being excluded isn’t that the job itself is being excluded, it’s that the player that has only that job available to them is now being excluded. In an MMO where playing a lot of jobs on one character is a huge selling point, and it’s encouraged to play a lot of different jobs, I see no reason why the leveling process shouldn’t be expedited like this and specialization given better focus.

[AceofRains]

They could just give a trait to SMN to make Physick scale with Intel instead of Mind, just like with RDM's VerCure. Then the spell would look suddenly much better, and SMN would be nerfed accordingly while keeping its identity.

I guess that’s an option too, but now that Summoner would heal it takes away from what makes Red Mage special, and even more away from the Healers responsibilities. The reasonable option is just to remove the useless action from the job and possibly replace it with something more useful.

[Mhaeric]

Then what is the point of having them on the same class? You have essentially made 2 different jobs and the only reason you want them together is so that they both get EXP. It really doesn't take long to level a job at all and consider how new jobs are introduced, they start at 20 levels below the expansion max level (excluding HW jobs). This means if you have a job that comes out in an expansion, and you haven't levelled the base class, you would have to start from level 1 and not the much higher level. I really do not see that as a valid reason to have splitting jobs.

This. All their suggestion boils down to is being able to level jobs faster. None of their justifications have any merit. E.g. one of their claims is that being able to level all jobs to 20 faster will allow people to play different roles if they choose. The thing is that this is already a thing and only needs 3 jobs in total to be able to achieve, 5 if you count the different DPS sub-roles. You don't need to level all 20 jobs to be able to have role options. The suggestion is just about wanting to be able to level multiple jobs faster, which they were very clear about in their original post, and they've since come up with a bunch of not very well thought out justifications for it when people called that out.

All this talk about specializations is the same deal. Other games have specializations within a class because you can't change your class. They exist to give players options for that character since there's no other way they would have to be able to change their gameplay without starting a new character from scratch including having to do everything over again from scratch. FFXIV doesn't need this type of specialization because the ability to change your job already exists and only requires earning a bit of experience. The armoury system is FFXIV's version of a specialization system.

[Venur]

One of the reason I play FF online is for the strict role. When I role a paladin I know that I will be expected to tank. I won't be pigeon holed into another role because square messed up the tanking tree since their is no tree.

But sometimes like you see in EQ2 might be a good idea I'd say.

lets say your an EQ2 paladin well you can spec to improve your soloing, goes purely into defencive when your pushing new content or you can drop some of your defectives move for more DPS or off-tanking. But no mather how you spec you still a tank.

Its really beneficial for healer mostly. While solo questing you can lower your healing in order to get some DPS for soloing. You can do the same while farming content but no mater what your spec is. You'r still a full time healer.

[Kiarin]

Would absolutely like not precisely skill trees, but talent trees, with 2 conditions:

1) they must be done so that each job always remains the same role. For example, for PLD there can be a choice in his tree between two talents:
A - "increases Sentinel duration by 5 seconds", and
B - "all healing recieved during Divine Veil is 10% stronger"
Both are corresponding to the idea of tanking. Vice versa, "increases Clemency potency by 100" would be a bad talent.

2) they must be balanced so that there is no meta implicitly forced by devs. Blizzard is infamous for doing that on purpose - no thanks. All builds must be equally good at least on mathematical level.

Apart from that, I see no cons and 1000's of pros to the idea. You would be able to make your job and your vision of it unique. Ain't that cool.
Of course, it implies a huge amount of work and sadly we won't see it most probably.

[ItMe]

Would absolutely like not precisely skill trees, but talent trees

About how many talents do you think a tree would need to be healthy and worthwhile?
1 unlocked at 50 and every 10 levels after like, or in place of, capstone abilities?

[Kiarin]

Methinks the more the merrier :-). If there could be 100 tier talents' tree, I personally would welcome it.

But this is 1) exponentially harder for devs to invent, imply, and most importantly - balance,
and 2) exponentially harder for players to sort out.

So as a golden mean, maybe, starting from lvl 50 and then every 5 levels. This way, a tree will have 7 tiers. And, let's say, 3 talents to choose one on each tier. This means 21 talents to invent for each class - more or less reasonable. And a plenty of freedom to customize your build.
This is, however, totally debatable. For example, if talents would have grades (!), there could be significantly less of them.

[Razard]

So as a golden mean, maybe, starting from lvl 50 and then every 5 levels. This way, a tree will have 7 tiers. And, let's say, 3 talents to choose one on each tier. This means 21 talents to invent for each class - more or less reasonable. And a plenty of freedom to customize your build.

But, even using this theoretical number as a jumping off point, that would mean Balancing a total of 336 talents against each other. With potential combinations into the tens of thousands. Each having to be balanced within thier respective roles.

Or I can switch my weapon and get a different flavour of the class I am currently playing. I can equip a Rod for massive booms, Rapier for lots of rezzes or a Book if I want to be broken 1.5 patches into an expansion. That's the Egi Book, not the Fairy Book, that's a different kettle of worms I don't want to go into.