Class Trees

[Eliadil]

Now there’s complaints because X, Y, and Z jobs do things way too similar.
My opinion specifically is that jobs should have explicit identity.

I wouldn't say that they are too similar, but the issue we had in stormblood is that each job had it's "thing", and some were just way, way, way better than the others and thus shaped a really strict meta. Dragoon had the piercing debuff, which was intended to be one of its support feature, as well as its critical rate buff. Turns out Bard was just way, way, way too good with a dragoon and thus they became mandatory due to how absurdly well their specific buffs worked with each others.

Right now, there isn't any job that does the same as the other ones, even among tanks who are the most... Standardized of the bunch they each feel unique (except maybe war who feels a bit... Left behind). The issue is that some jobs have little things that gives them an identity, but also can be a detriment.

Monk has Brotherhood, on paper it looks really fine, being a physical damage buff. However, when you take into account that double caster is a thing, and a really good one... Well suddenly Brotherhood looks way worse on some scenarios.

The same can be said about RedMage. Sure, instant-raise is a thing. But let's be honest, when your group stops dying in an encounter... Well raise suddenly lose an interest, and Red Mage gets kinda punished heavily in damage for having this option, even when they don't need it. But sure, all in the name of job identity.

Stuff then gets really weird when you look at SMN, the king of casters right now. Not only does it have incredibly high damage, it also has a damage buff given by its pet (This sounds like strong job identity) AND IT CAN ALSO RAISE PEOPLES because it's reminicent of its ties to Scholar. As well as having Physick, but it kinda sucks right now so... Oh did I mention that it has also Bahamut Trance and Phenix Trance which makes the SMN able to instant-cast for a big part of its rotation ? Well that's another facet of this job's identity.

But I think you begin to see the point. Job identity and having specific bonuses are fine, but you often end up at either Monk or RDM side of the coin, which is where identity can ruin optimal performance in scenarios like party finder for example (which is what a really big part of the playerbase use), where you cannot control what job you will get with you. Or you end up like a SMN who can do everything and do it well because "duh, job identity".

We can however all agree that we all like being able to perform optimally. That was kinda the point of this thread. Skill trees to be able to perform optimally no matter the situation.

But on the other hand, it's better if each job has its own identity ? Well... both options at the same time... Seems hard to do. Especially to balance while releasing content at a regular pace, which is one of the strongest points of ff14.

[AceofRains]

X

X

Okay, yeah def. both of you make really good points about this. My whole schtick is about seeing Classes utilized as the vessel for jobs and jobs being the specializations themselves. Like that was the original intention of the job stones when they were introduced back in 1.4. Some classes give you the option to play a different style of a role, like Gladiator as Paladin or Dark Knight, and others might give you the option to switch role altogether, like our current Summoner and Scholar.

What I do know is that unless jobs and content become super bland, there will always be a meta. I think that designing fights that require the use of status healing could be an effective approach to those specializations. Like giving Red Mage Erase, or even a “VerWall” spell. Giving Monk Chakra with the ability to remove the ailments of nearby allies. Those little things go a long way towards identity. And if you need them during a hardcore fight then they suddenly become a lot more useful at facilitating a mechanic that Healers can’t overcome alone. As many jobs that can raise, I’m also surprised that Paladin hasn’t even gotten a raise. Some fights might require heavier DPS checks, so you’ll take things like Black Mage. Some bosses might favor hitting back lines, some might hit front line. In hardcore content, it should be normal to be selective about which jobs get in to execute the strategy- besides, most rewards can be applied universally and don’t have to be used on your progression job.

I think that in a game where jobs are the selling point, and we can play all jobs on one character, not only should the process of leveling be expedited by binding expansion jobs to classes, but jobs should have a little more situational use. I get some people like to play their favorites, and good balance does ensure that good players can continue to make it through on what they’re good at. The bigger problem with a job being excluded is not that the job itself is excluded, but when a player only has that job and the player is excluded. But over all I will always be of the mind that encouraging metas and specialization is the better road.