Class Trees

[reyre]

Wow, someone is really salty about how much MNK sucked ...sucks. Hey man I have been there. Keep pushing for that complete overhaul the DEV team isn't working on. I wised up and changed my DPS main to MCH, you know the one with a coherent rotation and identity that needed a complete overhaul of the class. It also does quite a bit of damage to boot without RNG. You hang in there. Hopefully player feedback won't ruin Monk when SE decides to fix it.

Well, you are kind of wrong there you know according to the recent Live Letter, they are actually working on that rework and it will be live by 5.4 with some potency changes by 5.3 kind of like NIN. Now i dont know why my "saltyness" has anything to do with the point i am trying to argue against. I am just putting an example of my point. So now you have on two occations proved that you write based on assumptions and for both times have been wrong, so i guess i should say this a third time, you should not assume anything other wise you would most likely be wrong.
As for the rest of your comment, i dont believe that you would try to brag about changing ingame jobs, that would be childish, immature and petty, if nothing else im glad that you are enjoying the job. Or should i be reading between the lines here?

[Sqwall]

Well, you are kind of wrong there you know according to the recent Live Letter, they are actually working on that rework and it will be live by 5.4 with some potency changes by 5.3 kind of like NIN. Now i dont know why my "saltyness" has anything to do with the point i am trying to argue against. I am just putting an example of my point. So now you have on two occations proved that you write based on assumptions and for both times have been wrong, so i guess i should say this a third time, you should not assume anything other wise you would most likely be wrong.
As for the rest of your comment, i dont believe that you would try to brag about changing ingame jobs, that would be childish, immature and petty, if nothing else im glad that you are enjoying the job. Or should i be reading between the lines here?

Your assumptions are correct. That's because I meant what I wrote

And since the discussion has changed to job identity I figured I would join in by eluding to the fact (pardon the assumption) that you were quite miffed about how Monk has turned out. I feel for you...which is why I changed. But what bothers me is going back to a real reason why. Why did you pick Monk? Was it because the class looked cool? Was it because when you played the class it felt good? Was it because you just wanted to punch and kick mobs in the face?

Or was it the class that you identified mostly with? Was it because you wanted to master a complex class and feel good when you did? Did playing Monk remind you of FFIV Yang or FFVI Sabin?

I know I made those choices when I decided to play Monk, and now due to player feedback it has been ruined. I don't enjoy playing Monk anymore, and this soul reason is why FFXIV classes are losing there identity. They are no longer the reason why I play the classes. The very fact that they are reworking the class tells me that they messed it up, and that it's has made players unhappy. And that makes me feel for the ones that still keep playing it.

[reyre]

Your assumptions are correct. That's because I meant what I wrote

And since the discussion has changed to job identity I figured I would join in by eluding to the fact (pardon the assumption) that you were quite miffed about how Monk has turned out. I feel for you...which is why I changed. But what bothers me is going back to a real reason why. Why did you pick Monk? Was it because the class looked cool? Was it because when you played the class it felt good? Was it because you just wanted to punch and kick mobs in the face?

Or was it the class that you identified mostly with? Was it because you wanted to master a complex class and feel good when you did? Did playing Monk remind you of FFIV Yang or FFVI Sabin?

I know I made those choices when I decided to play Monk, and now due to player feedback it has been ruined. I don't enjoy playing Monk anymore, and this soul reason is why FFXIV classes are losing there identity. They are no longer the reason why I play the classes. The very fact that they are reworking the class tells me that they messed it up, and that it's has made players unhappy. And that makes me feel for the ones that still keep playing it.

I did not assumed anything.
Neither of those reasons is why i pick MNK.
So player feedback made Monk worse yet, you, a player is now giving feedback on how to change the overall systems of the game. That is contradictory. In fact if they are reworking it because they have listen to the players doesnt that mean that player feedback is going to ruin it this time as well? doesnt that mean that your feedback is going to ruin the game as well?

Im done with this argument, you have nothing of value to say or to add, and you contradict yourself at every point, sad. It seems that once you knew you were completely wrong you change the focus of the argument to a different one ignoring everything else, how boring.

[Braven_Doomdraft]

I did not assumed anything.
Neither of those reasons is why i pick MNK.
So player feedback made Monk worse yet, you, a player is now giving feedback on how to change the overall systems of the game. That is contradictory. In fact if they are reworking it because they have listen to the players doesnt that mean that player feedback is going to ruin it this time as well? doesnt that mean that your feedback is going to ruin the game as well?

You're a dick. You came in hot calling other ideas "stupid" when anyone with an ounce of brain in their head knows that's like throwing gasoline on a dumpster fire, especially when people here are just trying to have honest open discourse about what changes they would like to see in the game. If there's one thing that FFXIV absolutely is, it's a game that is shaped by the players. The original game released and was so bad that they listened to the players' feedback and destroyed the entire thing and basically started over. The developers are doing their job, but part of their job is to also listen and implement applicable player feedback. If the only job of the developers was to make sure the mechanics work, then they could have stopped with the first patch. Without players, there is no game. Without listening to the players, they leave. Want to know the real driving force behind the game? Making money. They'll do whatever they can to drive more players to subscribe. Why do you think they have gutted and rooted out as many historical Final Fantasy tropes and bosses/environments as they have? To draw in both players new and old.

I don't like the idea of a skill tree at this late a stage in the game because, as others have said, that puts the focus on a "best" skill tree to take whereas right now it's really just a matter of what job is best or can hit the hardest. The raids are meant to implement more mechanics that depend on player skill rather than a specific job skill, they just haven't done a good job lately of giving each job its own time to shine in a boss raid battle. Mechanics will always win with developers over nuancing a job's role. Them's just the facts. They've been making progress on that front, but clearly not up to players' liking. Monk, for example, is absolute garbage right now and has been for a while. Bard is up there too in the trash heap, but not quite as bad. Personally, I'd like to see true support classes added over nuance of specific jobs, or perhaps give some jobs more than one role (A DRK could be both Tank and DPS) instead of shoehorning them into one role. Or have jobs that can serve in a dual role and people could spec the job/equip the job based on the role they want to play instead of the role the job traditionally has had.

[Sqwall]

You're a dick. You came in hot calling other ideas "stupid" when anyone with an ounce of brain in their head knows that's like throwing gasoline on a dumpster fire, especially when people here are just trying to have honest open discourse about what changes they would like to see in the game. If there's one thing that FFXIV absolutely is, it's a game that is shaped by the players. The original game released and was so bad that they listened to the players' feedback and destroyed the entire thing and basically started over. The developers are doing their job, but part of their job is to also listen and implement applicable player feedback. If the only job of the developers was to make sure the mechanics work, then they could have stopped with the first patch. Without players, there is no game. Without listening to the players, they leave. Want to know the real driving force behind the game? Making money. They'll do whatever they can to drive more players to subscribe. Why do you think they have gutted and rooted out as many historical Final Fantasy tropes and bosses/environments as they have? To draw in both players new and old.

I don't like the idea of a skill tree at this late a stage in the game because, as others have said, that puts the focus on a "best" skill tree to take whereas right now it's really just a matter of what job is best or can hit the hardest. The raids are meant to implement more mechanics that depend on player skill rather than a specific job skill, they just haven't done a good job lately of giving each job its own time to shine in a boss raid battle. Mechanics will always win with developers over nuancing a job's role. Them's just the facts. They've been making progress on that front, but clearly not up to players' liking. Monk, for example, is absolute garbage right now and has been for a while. Bard is up there too in the trash heap, but not quite as bad. Personally, I'd like to see true support classes added over nuance of specific jobs, or perhaps give some jobs more than one role (A DRK could be both Tank and DPS) instead of shoehorning them into one role. Or have jobs that can serve in a dual role and people could spec the job/equip the job based on the role they want to play instead of the role the job traditionally has had.

*snif* *snif* *snifff* Smells like vindication in here. Finally someone that punctuates and understands sentence structure. *points at screen* IS THAT A PARAGRAPH? *swoons*

[AceofRains]

I guess the bottom line of my thoughts on the matter is that either jobs have explicit identity and situational use, or every job is homogenized but can be used universally. Right now we are heading towards the latter. At first there was complaints because X job couldnt raid. Now there’s complaints because X, Y, and Z jobs do things way too similar. We can’t have our cake and eat it too on this one.

My opinion specifically is that jobs should have explicit identity.

[Sqwall]

My opinion specifically is that jobs should have explicit identity.

I totally agree with you. This thread went off the rails and border lined on bullying. For that I am sorry. I did my best to vindicate your opinions

[Eliadil]

Now there’s complaints because X, Y, and Z jobs do things way too similar.
My opinion specifically is that jobs should have explicit identity.

I wouldn't say that they are too similar, but the issue we had in stormblood is that each job had it's "thing", and some were just way, way, way better than the others and thus shaped a really strict meta. Dragoon had the piercing debuff, which was intended to be one of its support feature, as well as its critical rate buff. Turns out Bard was just way, way, way too good with a dragoon and thus they became mandatory due to how absurdly well their specific buffs worked with each others.

Right now, there isn't any job that does the same as the other ones, even among tanks who are the most... Standardized of the bunch they each feel unique (except maybe war who feels a bit... Left behind). The issue is that some jobs have little things that gives them an identity, but also can be a detriment.

Monk has Brotherhood, on paper it looks really fine, being a physical damage buff. However, when you take into account that double caster is a thing, and a really good one... Well suddenly Brotherhood looks way worse on some scenarios.

The same can be said about RedMage. Sure, instant-raise is a thing. But let's be honest, when your group stops dying in an encounter... Well raise suddenly lose an interest, and Red Mage gets kinda punished heavily in damage for having this option, even when they don't need it. But sure, all in the name of job identity.

Stuff then gets really weird when you look at SMN, the king of casters right now. Not only does it have incredibly high damage, it also has a damage buff given by its pet (This sounds like strong job identity) AND IT CAN ALSO RAISE PEOPLES because it's reminicent of its ties to Scholar. As well as having Physick, but it kinda sucks right now so... Oh did I mention that it has also Bahamut Trance and Phenix Trance which makes the SMN able to instant-cast for a big part of its rotation ? Well that's another facet of this job's identity.

But I think you begin to see the point. Job identity and having specific bonuses are fine, but you often end up at either Monk or RDM side of the coin, which is where identity can ruin optimal performance in scenarios like party finder for example (which is what a really big part of the playerbase use), where you cannot control what job you will get with you. Or you end up like a SMN who can do everything and do it well because "duh, job identity".

We can however all agree that we all like being able to perform optimally. That was kinda the point of this thread. Skill trees to be able to perform optimally no matter the situation.

But on the other hand, it's better if each job has its own identity ? Well... both options at the same time... Seems hard to do. Especially to balance while releasing content at a regular pace, which is one of the strongest points of ff14.