Class Trees

[AceofRains]

X

Oh nooo not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

Did you ever stop to think that the issue is trying to force a square peg into a round hole? Why not just let fights be fights and let people figure out what’s optimal? Like if you’re a Pugilist, being a Dancer or Monk at different times would be part and parcel of playing the class. And if you had both available for being tied to one class, very little people would complain about it because playing a lot of different jobs is the selling point of a job based final fantasy title. But they marketed the whole job system to you as a stand alone job as is instead of a job as a specialization, so you will always fail to see it as anything beyond that.

This may be an mmo, but in many of the final fantasy titles, there are optimal job/team strategies to beat certain bosses. That doesn’t mean a boss can’t be beaten with alternative strategies, but using an optimal strategy shouldn’t be somehow frowned upon, it should be complimented. Hardcore fights should require optimal strategies. Hardcore players will use what ever means necessary. For normal fights, you could do what ever you want. It’s also not complicated to design when in a fight something is more optimal. Boss hits back line a lot? Bring more Melee. Boss hits front line a lot? Bring more Ranged. Need a DPS check? Bring heavy hitters. Need better support because of status effects or guaranteed death? Bring utility. Trying to make it so every job can do all of these things manageably, or don’t deal with these things at all, makes them stale.

Honestly I think that trying to forcibly balance 20 jobs into complete equality of homogenization is the issue. Equality of that nature prevents uniqueness and achievement. And that’s really what sucks the fun out of this game.

You know what’s fun about League of Legends that keeps me coming back year after year? Every champion is unique. While they have their different times to shine, it’s always satisfying to play what’s meta and kick ass. Sure, the champion I like most might not be flavor of the month, but that doesn’t mean I can’t play it causally. But when I know I’m going for rank, I will play what’s meta and that should be encouraged.

[reyre]

not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

You cant be this naive or stupid. The job of any developer is not to cater to the player base, is the develop somenthing that takes into consideration plenty of factors not just players, so no they are literally not to be paid to do what you are saying the should and you kind of missed the point there, as in they are struggling with the current version of the battle system why then should they try and redo the entire thing when for the most part is well recived? You are ignoring the idea that devs would not make their job harder just to accomodate somenthing they dont want to do and will take more resources than its worth. So once more they are not paid to do dumb work, like you suggest.

As for the rest of your comment, its very contradictory, for starters if you have more fun playing other games with more appealing systems than this one, why are you not playing those games? Instead you are trying to make this game more like the others or that is what it seems. But i digress back to the rest of your comment is still very stupid, this game is not made towards optimal startegies so your whole argument enters in contradiction with your previous comment of having flexibility, you can have one or the other. if you are flexible you cant have heavely optimal strategies, if you are going for hardcore you cant have that much flexibility. This enters the "devs dont like to apply resources in a dumb fashion" notion, because they have limited time and resources to do so, in fact most games fail beacause of what you are mocking, for example see "What happun?" in youtube by matt Mcmuscles for plenty of stories and comentary about it.

And you are talking about YOUR ideal version of this game, wheras i am talking about what this game is. This game is, for better or worse, able to accomodate every palyer and in any kind of content so you can clear savage and ultimates with every class no limits, what you are saying would go against this, i dont think this is the direction they want to go. You are also ignoring the fact that in someway what you wanted in the game was implented at some point and players did not like it, thus they remove it or are against it for example SMN and SCH which follow very closely what you want and people want them separated. It seems to me that you are ignoring some ingame examples.

You are assuming people would not complain based on nothing but hearsay, that is not a proper argument nor can it be used to prove any of your points. Using your own broken argument: why not let this game be this game and let people figure out what is optimal? Somehow that seems almost ironically fitting doenst it? I could prove your point wrong using contradiction or induction or even abduction at that but i doubt that you would even believe that, so lets just leave it at that.

[AceofRains]

X

I don’t call you stupid. Why do you call me stupid? Like that right there makes me give zero care about what you have to say. Like. Learn how to have some basic respect before constructing your rebuttal.

[reyre]

I don’t call you stupid. Why do you call me stupid? Like that right there makes me give zero care about what you have to say. Like. Learn how to have some basic respect before constructing your rebuttal.

Hmm so you dont read or just read what you want. I never called you stupid, i wrote "You cant be this naive or stupid". Like. Learn how to have some basic reading skills before feeling offended, just because you have no counter point whatsoever. Like that right there tells me that and kind of proves that you dont read very well.

[ItMe]

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

It sounds like that would just be replacing one form of homogenization for another.
If there is a definitive best combo for a fight... You'd basically see only that 90% of the time.
My friend tells me that back in Heavensward less than half of the jobs got played in high end content.

[Mhaeric]

My friend tells me that back in Heavensward less than half of the jobs got played in high end content.

That's sort of true, but it would be more accurate to say that certain combinations of jobs had the status of being considered meta for high-end content and the other jobs had to compete for the limited remaining slots. All jobs participated, but some had a harder time getting in.

[Sqwall]

That's sort of true, but it would be more accurate to say that certain combinations of jobs had the status of being considered meta for high-end content and the other jobs had to compete for the limited remaining slots. All jobs participated, but some had a harder time getting in.

I don't understand what the big deal is to have one DPS do MORE damage then all the other classes. If each job was DESIGNED to COMPLIMENT other classes then it wouldn't matter how much damage they were doing in a raid, as long as I keep a certain buff up to push the other DPS to do more damage, or a bleed on a boss, etc;. I would LOVE to toss a buff or debuff on boss to take more damage if I knew the BLM was starting their BURST phase. With the logic everyone is saying just DPS the boss and avoid AOE to win! That's boring... The real challenge is in getting a group that has different skills to compliment the whole party, and HOW you use those skills.

RDM was such a disappointment to me when it was just another DPS. I was really hoping they would introduce the support class. A class devoted to just pushing the WHOLE group to heal more, DPS more, and tank better. But instead we got a DPS that has fallen behind this expansion and needed potency buffs to be worthwhile. This would be a different story if embolden was a 30 min buff then a RDM would be nice to have even though its does less damage then others, all of you nay sayers would be changing your tune if you could have embolden for 30 min. Sure bring the RDM! (but there DPS is crap) Doesn't matter because mine will be better!

Trees was just an idea to give our identities back, and suppose if the community knows better then the Devs then the Devs should listen. This is why we are LOSING our identities. The Dev team has really put themselves in a position and I don't know where this is heading come next expansion. But it is certain we are getting more skills to just DPS and that's about it. That is whats stupid imo.

[Sqwall]

Hmm so you dont read or just read what you want. I never called you stupid, i wrote "You cant be this naive or stupid". Like. Learn how to have some basic reading skills before feeling offended, just because you have no counter point whatsoever. Like that right there tells me that and kind of proves that you dont read very well.

Maybe you should learn basic human emotion, and understand intelligent people read between the lines. When something is implied, it's deliberate. It's a discussion not a fight. I would expect YOU to understand the difference. That "YOU"was implied by the way for those that find it hard to read between the lines.

[reyre]

Quote

So wait, like a ninja Trick Attack? I will say this again but versions of what you want exist and have existed in the game and they have been removed because of player feedback. The lost of identity is not because A dps JUST does damage. And you may say whatever you want, but a class with your ideas would be nerfed into obvlion because it would be too good, and no most of the "nay sayers" would instead ask for either every class has a 30 min buff like that or for RDM to be nerfed.
I really dont think that you understand how balancing works. To put an example in HW NIN had the lowest melee dps but because it had TA it was almost always more desiered than MNK, you may think that this is good BUT and i need you to pay attention here, it did not push MNK dps high enough to be worth bringing said MNK instead you brough a DRG (another support dps). So by giving NIN this super positive debuff MNK was meme for most of the expac. So you see there was somenthing like that before, BRD had it in the form of their songs and because of it MCH got cucked. Your idea will alienate jobs instead of making them have synergy and as response to this players would, very loudly, demand for a nerf or their own from of buff, which is why now MNK is trapped behind three layers of RNG because of brotherhood, a pointless buff that affects MNKs core rotation, see its not dps thing is a rotation thing and it has been pretty badly recived by almost all MNK mains. SEE my point there?

Actually let me be blunt Jobs right now are desing to complement other jobs, but is simply not enough.

[reyre]

Maybe you should learn basic human emotion, and understand intelligent people read between the lines. When something is implied, it's deliberate. It's a discussion not a fight. I would expect YOU to understand the difference. That "YOU"was implied by the way for those that find it hard to read between the lines.

I am not arrogant enough to believe what an intelligent person should or should not be doing. Now, you, like that person are just assuming, thus by the very definition of the word you have no idea if you are right yet you act on your assumption intead of asking if somenthing is not clear or if you think is implied. Since this is written conversation emotion and sentiment are not properly conveyed. I know this might be hard to comprehend but i actually did not meant what that person and you think i meant, now i would like to think than an "intelligent person" would ask before acting based on assumptions, otherwise one would have a high risk of being wrong and that doesnt seem very intelligent does it?

And once more let me be deliberate and i will not have room left for interpretation or between the lines fuzzy-nes, i dont think that person or you should assume anything because you are wrong. As an example, basic human emotion is instinctual and more or less baked in our very DNA thus anger, happiness and fear fall into that category not "feeling offended because you assume you are reading between the lines" thus emotions cannot be learned.
And finally just so you know a discussion is a fight of ideas, you must be able to defend your idea and point out where the opposing idea fails. But then again are you reading between the lines here?