Class Trees

[AceofRains]

DPS wise:
Not a good idea.
Simply because there will be a "better combo". And if you want to make choices that impact your DPS depending on the fight (For example reducing X cooldown by Y seconds which would be helpfull in some cases), people would be tired to switch everytime their "BiS Talent".


Utility wise:
We had something that involve making a choice for role skills. They ended up making everything available because too much was needed for healers and everyone choose the same utility for DPS/Tank.

Status effect in battle already exist and that's called Silence/Stun. It's used in E8S and every job has to use their utility, unless you're healer(non-whm)/caster. Snare was also used in Coil (I think never played this content) but damaging the target would remove snare, Sleep suffers the same problem and Paralysis is a stun RNG based.

Also I was curious when you said raids were DPS fest so I allowed myself to check a bit what kind of content you use to play... And looking at your achievements/mounts, I don't think you play Extreme/Savage content? Mechanics are in these difficulty, every other content is a DPS fest you can barely fail/complete with only tanks/healers.

However, this kind of content could work somewhere else than raids. For exemple Eureka-like content. Logos are a kind of a choice.

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

What if. And entertain the thought for me on this- what if it was better to bring a Dancer over a Monk for some fights, intentionally. What if in certain situations it’s better to have a Monk than a Dancer. This becomes infinitely more reasonable if jobs were actual specializations that you could freely swap, rather than just jobs as the singular option you have.

Metas will always form, regardless. Like, I feel like certain jobs should intentionally compliment others. They de-complimented jobs in the same breath as adding Dancer to the game and taking away Bards utility. On what planet should a Bard and Dancer not be complimentary? Clearly Hydaelyn.

Admittedly I don’t usually do savage raids until they’re a little older, but introducing more complex mechanics and dehomogenizing jobs could go a long way towards more satisfying interactions.

Stun and Silence don’t really count for status effects. They are at best interruptions. I’m talking about things like sleeping a raid boss during a phase when they’d put out unavoidable raid damage while adds spawn. You have 30 seconds from the time of sleep to clear the adds or they will continue to pound you with raid damage, and you cannot touch the boss or it will wake up.

Now that adds a whole new layer of challenge.

[reyre]

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

What if. And entertain the thought for me on this- what if it was better to bring a Dancer over a Monk for some fights, intentionally. What if in certain situations it’s better to have a Monk than a Dancer. This becomes infinitely more reasonable if jobs were actual specializations that you could freely swap, rather than just jobs as the singular option you have.

How can i put this softly, this seems very stupid. Why do you want to put more weight on a dev team that is already full with issues with the current balance of the game, adding this kind of diversity will not end up being a solution but will bring more issues. Now what if, and entetain the thought for me on this- what if i dont want to play dancer? but because this theoretical fight makes it geared towards bringin a dancer instead, no one would take a MNK, so just by doing this, implementing this incredible asinine idea, you just killed a possible composition and you blocked Monks from playing this theoretical fight. So now instead of just balancing How dps do the dps-ing, now you have to balnce how the fights play out with each posible combination and how to make the fights better for some jobs better than others, and then you would have to make a new raid just to fit the ones left out. It seems an awful lot of work to just implement an idea that is 100% pointless, having options is always an ilussion because the goal of this game fights is to deal as much dmg as fast as you can, there is no other goal. If there were other goal then this would be a different conversation, and even then it would be heavely prefered whatever it is that can reach the goal faster, be it dps or doing CC or etc.

Allow me to tell you a fantastic phrase "Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of a video game" This is why grinding exist in video games, this is why BnB exists in fighting games and so on, so you just want the ilusion of choice, so you can pretent you can pick up what you want, but in reality you will pick what is better for the goal and as i said before the goal in this game is dealing dmg. Finally, having classes that complement each other is a stupid idea becuase it fosters certain composition over others (and not even the meta world) that is a stupid notion when you have things like NIN being overwermely positive to any party composition, the same as DRG on the support side or are you forgetting what a BRD and DRG comp used to be in HW, amongst others? The only two jobs that are niche composition are RDM and MNK, and MNK even more so than RDM by a kilometer and a half, in fact allow me to tell you this the only class that has never had any synergy with any class (blunt debuff) is MNK. Overall bad idea because it doesnt seem that they are changing the goal of the fights, ohh and just an FYI there were other goals parallel to dmg in the previous raids and people did not like them, ADS on the first turn of bahamut, anyone?

[AceofRains]

X

Oh nooo not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

Did you ever stop to think that the issue is trying to force a square peg into a round hole? Why not just let fights be fights and let people figure out what’s optimal? Like if you’re a Pugilist, being a Dancer or Monk at different times would be part and parcel of playing the class. And if you had both available for being tied to one class, very little people would complain about it because playing a lot of different jobs is the selling point of a job based final fantasy title. But they marketed the whole job system to you as a stand alone job as is instead of a job as a specialization, so you will always fail to see it as anything beyond that.

This may be an mmo, but in many of the final fantasy titles, there are optimal job/team strategies to beat certain bosses. That doesn’t mean a boss can’t be beaten with alternative strategies, but using an optimal strategy shouldn’t be somehow frowned upon, it should be complimented. Hardcore fights should require optimal strategies. Hardcore players will use what ever means necessary. For normal fights, you could do what ever you want. It’s also not complicated to design when in a fight something is more optimal. Boss hits back line a lot? Bring more Melee. Boss hits front line a lot? Bring more Ranged. Need a DPS check? Bring heavy hitters. Need better support because of status effects or guaranteed death? Bring utility. Trying to make it so every job can do all of these things manageably, or don’t deal with these things at all, makes them stale.

Honestly I think that trying to forcibly balance 20 jobs into complete equality of homogenization is the issue. Equality of that nature prevents uniqueness and achievement. And that’s really what sucks the fun out of this game.

You know what’s fun about League of Legends that keeps me coming back year after year? Every champion is unique. While they have their different times to shine, it’s always satisfying to play what’s meta and kick ass. Sure, the champion I like most might not be flavor of the month, but that doesn’t mean I can’t play it causally. But when I know I’m going for rank, I will play what’s meta and that should be encouraged.

[reyre]

not the poor devs doing what they’re paid to do!

You cant be this naive or stupid. The job of any developer is not to cater to the player base, is the develop somenthing that takes into consideration plenty of factors not just players, so no they are literally not to be paid to do what you are saying the should and you kind of missed the point there, as in they are struggling with the current version of the battle system why then should they try and redo the entire thing when for the most part is well recived? You are ignoring the idea that devs would not make their job harder just to accomodate somenthing they dont want to do and will take more resources than its worth. So once more they are not paid to do dumb work, like you suggest.

As for the rest of your comment, its very contradictory, for starters if you have more fun playing other games with more appealing systems than this one, why are you not playing those games? Instead you are trying to make this game more like the others or that is what it seems. But i digress back to the rest of your comment is still very stupid, this game is not made towards optimal startegies so your whole argument enters in contradiction with your previous comment of having flexibility, you can have one or the other. if you are flexible you cant have heavely optimal strategies, if you are going for hardcore you cant have that much flexibility. This enters the "devs dont like to apply resources in a dumb fashion" notion, because they have limited time and resources to do so, in fact most games fail beacause of what you are mocking, for example see "What happun?" in youtube by matt Mcmuscles for plenty of stories and comentary about it.

And you are talking about YOUR ideal version of this game, wheras i am talking about what this game is. This game is, for better or worse, able to accomodate every palyer and in any kind of content so you can clear savage and ultimates with every class no limits, what you are saying would go against this, i dont think this is the direction they want to go. You are also ignoring the fact that in someway what you wanted in the game was implented at some point and players did not like it, thus they remove it or are against it for example SMN and SCH which follow very closely what you want and people want them separated. It seems to me that you are ignoring some ingame examples.

You are assuming people would not complain based on nothing but hearsay, that is not a proper argument nor can it be used to prove any of your points. Using your own broken argument: why not let this game be this game and let people figure out what is optimal? Somehow that seems almost ironically fitting doenst it? I could prove your point wrong using contradiction or induction or even abduction at that but i doubt that you would even believe that, so lets just leave it at that.

[AceofRains]

X

I don’t call you stupid. Why do you call me stupid? Like that right there makes me give zero care about what you have to say. Like. Learn how to have some basic respect before constructing your rebuttal.

[reyre]

I don’t call you stupid. Why do you call me stupid? Like that right there makes me give zero care about what you have to say. Like. Learn how to have some basic respect before constructing your rebuttal.

Hmm so you dont read or just read what you want. I never called you stupid, i wrote "You cant be this naive or stupid". Like. Learn how to have some basic reading skills before feeling offended, just because you have no counter point whatsoever. Like that right there tells me that and kind of proves that you dont read very well.

[Sqwall]

Hmm so you dont read or just read what you want. I never called you stupid, i wrote "You cant be this naive or stupid". Like. Learn how to have some basic reading skills before feeling offended, just because you have no counter point whatsoever. Like that right there tells me that and kind of proves that you dont read very well.

Maybe you should learn basic human emotion, and understand intelligent people read between the lines. When something is implied, it's deliberate. It's a discussion not a fight. I would expect YOU to understand the difference. That "YOU"was implied by the way for those that find it hard to read between the lines.

[Sqwall]

You cant be this naive or stupid.

This is statement. No question mark.

I don’t call you stupid. Why do you call me stupid? <--- He put a question mark. This implies that you did in fact call him stupid. Otherwise he wouldn't have questioned why you did this.