Class Trees

[Sqwall]

I feel with more expansions that come out the need for class trees becomes more effective in giving the jobs a choice for the player. As well as give the player an identity to the Job.

I know it's not good give choice when end game meta is more strict on what you can bring into a raid.

But if every single job had two trees to choose from that would give buffs based on a play style you like then why not. Just keep them even as far as potency goes.

This would give options for MT tank Off tank DPS.
DPS stances would have meaning and give a tree for each stance. i.e. monk wind, fire. Or for Bard: Songs or DPS.
Healers i.e. astro would have shields or Heal over time.

This would really require knowing the fight you are going into and specing for what the raid is requiring.

Example: Don't have quite the MT level of stats/gear necessary for the raid? Well we will have you OT, and spec in raid defense buffs tree. This helps compliment the raid more without excluding. You become necessary based on the content.

This makes the content/raid much more intense if you have a DPS check (DPS uses more support/buffs to get past phases), a Raid Wide AOE check (use more defense buffs to survive better), an Enrage check (Raw damage increase from DPS/Healers/Tanks from respective trees) and then finally an enrage/hybrid check (RAW damage from everyone while also preventing high damage from boss i.e. Combo of DPS buffs/ Defense Buffs to get past phase)

I really like the idea of a raid not being face roll easy and just avoiding AOE. Make it requiring everyone in the raid doing there part to not only DPS like crazy, but help keep the raid alive by supporting the healers.


Just allow the classes to lean into something a little bit more then the other that can help compliment the content.

I don't know I think it would be interesting if this was something SE experimented with. Or it would be more complex then I think. Who knows?

[Eliadil]

The issue with class/talent trees is that in the end, the choice they give you is... Meaningless. As an example like WoW or other games with talent trees, there will always be an option that is regarded as "the best" by players, and will be the only one used because its benefits are simply too good. All of the rest will be disregarded as bad or useless (which let's be honest is the case with 75% of anything in a talent tree anyway). In swtor, there was also a multi-spec system, with each class having three spec possible. One "sustained" dps, the other "burst" dps, and the last being either tank, heal or another dps spec. For each and every class there was, you would be certain that one spec was always the one nobody used because it was simply horrible. Or worst case, one spec was used because it was either too strong or the least bad of the three available.

The only thing we have here looking like talent trees is the fact that you can play whatever job you want on the same character. If you want more support-based tanking then you play Paladin. If you want a more shield-based healer you play scholar. If you like being the ranged with many buffs you play dancer or bard.

And I don't know if you've actually played ultimates or even savage raiding but on some fights, if your whole group isn't helping your healers or tanks then you'll end up having a really bad time. E4S at the time was really rough on some healer checks (tumults at the end of the fights were really challenging to heal through) and you would definitely notice a difference if you had a Paladin throwing a Divine Veil or a Monk using Mantra in the lot. The same goes for ultimate, and is actually used by some groups who do stuff like "one healer clear runs" on Alexander. You take a bard because it's stupid strong with double dot, and it can cleanse himself as well, allowing for a much easier time for the healer.

Multi-spec or talent trees aren't the way to go for each class. They give devs an extra work charge to balance it, and since they never end up balanced anyway, the choice they seem to give is almost never a real choice, as there will always be a better combinations above all the others.

That's my two cents on the subject !

[Eclipse12187]

I like your ideas, however like with everything else the community will figure out what pushes the most dps and anyone who does something other will be alienated. From your MT/OT perspective will the OT class get damage buffs over what an MT spec can pull? If that’s the case we go right back to the issues we had in SB and HW where you spend as little time in a tank stance as possible. How would tank swaps be handled if the OT wasn’t spec’d defensively to be able to handle the tank busters. It adds a lot more variables to a system that’s pretty static in the name of adding flavor or complexity, which in itself isn’t a bad thing. It just doesn’t work well in our current endgame environment.

In terms of say.. AST as you brought up. You could spec into regens or shields. Can you change this on the fly? Regens will stack but shields don’t causing compatibility issues if you get noct ast/sch or double noct sch in a roulette.

As a whole the meta of nin/drg/brd was broken up (buff nerfs, removal of piercing debuff, ast rdps lowered etc) in an attempt to curb any kind of required classes to bring for a raid. Adding in a mix of extra support/buffs could break this again because with our current environment dps is king. There’s no meaningful way the game tests tanks or healers outside of tankbusters and raidwides so we’re left with pushing as much dps as we can to push phases and clear faster.

[Sqwall]

There’s no meaningful way the game tests tanks or healers outside of tankbusters and raidwides so we’re left with pushing as much dps as we can to push phases and clear faster.

I think that this is what really brought up the thought about trees. I keep finding myself going through the motions in raids. There isn't any intensity with the difficulty. I have played a lot of MMO's and FFXIV usually sacrifices difficulty for inclusion. Now that's not a bad thing by any means in fact some MMO's could really learn something from FFXIV. But I fear it will just become a cycle that feels shallow. DPS,DPS,DPS without any real intensity. Trees was just a thought to change the endgame dynamics for more thought going into a raid.

Indulge me.
I keep coming back to raid mechanics that really test the players.
For example: Raid boss uses uninterruptible FAST cast on MT causing multiple debuffs, but CAN be cured with ESUNA *all healers use Esuna to remove*, then a raidwide AOE following the multiple debuff that the healers have to heal everyone through. What do the healers do? Cure the Debuff and save MT and lost the raid or Heal raid and lose the MT? You need both healers healing to keep up with the damage, but you need both casting Esuna to cure the debuff! By creating these real choices you can generate a real need for another way we can get through this moment if someone else is healing, or also help debuff, while one healer just heals.

Now, the OT gets an ESUNA type spell/skill from the OT tree. They would use this to debuff the main tank while 1 healer helps with their ESUNA spell that all healers get. Then the 2nd healer starts casting AOE healing to get ready for the impending AOE. The MT has a skill from their tree that improves divine veil, shake it off, etc; to help with the first impacts of the AOE to a greater degree. And for ease I'll pick on Monk for our DPS: Mantra is in one tree and Brotherhood in another. Mantra is improved from the tree where the raid healing is improved, but also every heal shares the critical value of the monk. OR Brotherhood increases damage by 5% and shares the GL buff for 6 seconds to everyone this works for skills and spells! CHOOSE!

That's compelling to me and get's me excited because if we pull it off oh man!! Everyone working in conjunction to get through content by using the skills necessary WHILE DPSING to push through phases!

I think that is where trees can really excel, by diverting the needs of the content by allowing another to fulfill that need. Something SE tried to do with cross role abilities.

Am I the only one that thinks this would be a bad ass raid where each class is literally pulling there weight and taking the holy trinity tank/heal/dps idea even futher?

[AceofRains]

I suggested in other battle systems that all expansion jobs be tied to a class to facilitate basically what you’re talking about, as well as several other factors that would simplify the game. For instance I could be a pugilist for the sake of a leveling vessel that becomes Monk or Dancer based on what’s better for the Raid. But I got a lot of flak for the suggestion, so it’s whatever. Specialization is definitely something that needs to be considered and it will likely continue to be a bigger topic of discussion.

Speaking of healing status effects, why not also have mechanics that call for their application.

Status effects are such a big part of Blue Mage that make the job more interesting. Like if raid mechanics called for a boss to be Slept or Frozen while dealing with waves of spawning adds. Or maybe if a boss had to be paralyzed to help deal with a long cast that otherwise wouldn’t be interrupted. it would assuredly make for more interesting gameplay. Instead they gutted even the Blinds from the tanks while Healers have the ever useless repose.

[Vendalwind]

Balancing new trees is not a good or effectivr use of developer assets. It also just doesnt really belong in ffxiv. Adding it now would feel very weird and contrary, and historically speaking trees in mmos just cause problems for players and devs alike because of how meta makes the community interact to outliers.

I would much rather just see a new class

[Sqwall]

I suggested in other battle systems that all expansion jobs be tied to a class to facilitate basically what you’re talking about, as well as several other factors that would simplify the game. For instance I could be a pugilist for the sake of a leveling vessel that becomes Monk or Dancer based on what’s better for the Raid. But I got a lot of flak for the suggestion, so it’s whatever. Specialization is definitely something that needs to be considered and it will likely continue to be a bigger topic of discussion.

Speaking of healing status effects, why not also have mechanics that call for their application.

Status effects are such a big part of Blue Mage that make the job more interesting. Like if raid mechanics called for a boss to be Slept or Frozen while dealing with waves of spawning adds. Or maybe if a boss had to be paralyzed to help deal with a long cast that otherwise wouldn’t be interrupted. it would assuredly make for more interesting gameplay. Instead they gutted even the Blinds from the tanks while Healers have the ever useless repose.

Man I love this even more then my thoughts. I like to see the raids become more complex then just DPS fest. Make it interesting. I like the thoughts here!

[CKNovel]

DPS wise:
Not a good idea.
Simply because there will be a "better combo". And if you want to make choices that impact your DPS depending on the fight (For example reducing X cooldown by Y seconds which would be helpfull in some cases), people would be tired to switch everytime their "BiS Talent".

Utility wise:
We had something that involve making a choice for role skills. They ended up making everything available because too much was needed for healers and everyone choose the same utility for DPS/Tank.

Status effect in battle already exist and that's called Silence/Stun. It's used in E8S and every job has to use their utility, unless you're healer(non-whm)/caster. Snare was also used in Coil (I think never played this content) but damaging the target would remove snare, Sleep suffers the same problem and Paralysis is a stun RNG based.

Also I was curious when you said raids were DPS fest so I allowed myself to check a bit what kind of content you use to play... And looking at your achievements/mounts, I don't think you play Extreme/Savage content? Mechanics are in these difficulty, every other content is a DPS fest you can barely fail/complete with only tanks/healers.

However, this kind of content could work somewhere else than raids. For exemple Eureka-like content. Logos are a kind of a choice.

[AceofRains]

DPS wise:
Not a good idea.
Simply because there will be a "better combo". And if you want to make choices that impact your DPS depending on the fight (For example reducing X cooldown by Y seconds which would be helpfull in some cases), people would be tired to switch everytime their "BiS Talent".


Utility wise:
We had something that involve making a choice for role skills. They ended up making everything available because too much was needed for healers and everyone choose the same utility for DPS/Tank.

Status effect in battle already exist and that's called Silence/Stun. It's used in E8S and every job has to use their utility, unless you're healer(non-whm)/caster. Snare was also used in Coil (I think never played this content) but damaging the target would remove snare, Sleep suffers the same problem and Paralysis is a stun RNG based.

Also I was curious when you said raids were DPS fest so I allowed myself to check a bit what kind of content you use to play... And looking at your achievements/mounts, I don't think you play Extreme/Savage content? Mechanics are in these difficulty, every other content is a DPS fest you can barely fail/complete with only tanks/healers.

However, this kind of content could work somewhere else than raids. For exemple Eureka-like content. Logos are a kind of a choice.

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

What if. And entertain the thought for me on this- what if it was better to bring a Dancer over a Monk for some fights, intentionally. What if in certain situations it’s better to have a Monk than a Dancer. This becomes infinitely more reasonable if jobs were actual specializations that you could freely swap, rather than just jobs as the singular option you have.

Metas will always form, regardless. Like, I feel like certain jobs should intentionally compliment others. They de-complimented jobs in the same breath as adding Dancer to the game and taking away Bards utility. On what planet should a Bard and Dancer not be complimentary? Clearly Hydaelyn.

Admittedly I don’t usually do savage raids until they’re a little older, but introducing more complex mechanics and dehomogenizing jobs could go a long way towards more satisfying interactions.

Stun and Silence don’t really count for status effects. They are at best interruptions. I’m talking about things like sleeping a raid boss during a phase when they’d put out unavoidable raid damage while adds spawn. You have 30 seconds from the time of sleep to clear the adds or they will continue to pound you with raid damage, and you cannot touch the boss or it will wake up.

Now that adds a whole new layer of challenge.

[reyre]

I think the point is for there to be a better combo. Part of the biggest complaints about jobs right now is about how homogenized they’re becoming.

What if. And entertain the thought for me on this- what if it was better to bring a Dancer over a Monk for some fights, intentionally. What if in certain situations it’s better to have a Monk than a Dancer. This becomes infinitely more reasonable if jobs were actual specializations that you could freely swap, rather than just jobs as the singular option you have.

How can i put this softly, this seems very stupid. Why do you want to put more weight on a dev team that is already full with issues with the current balance of the game, adding this kind of diversity will not end up being a solution but will bring more issues. Now what if, and entetain the thought for me on this- what if i dont want to play dancer? but because this theoretical fight makes it geared towards bringin a dancer instead, no one would take a MNK, so just by doing this, implementing this incredible asinine idea, you just killed a possible composition and you blocked Monks from playing this theoretical fight. So now instead of just balancing How dps do the dps-ing, now you have to balnce how the fights play out with each posible combination and how to make the fights better for some jobs better than others, and then you would have to make a new raid just to fit the ones left out. It seems an awful lot of work to just implement an idea that is 100% pointless, having options is always an ilussion because the goal of this game fights is to deal as much dmg as fast as you can, there is no other goal. If there were other goal then this would be a different conversation, and even then it would be heavely prefered whatever it is that can reach the goal faster, be it dps or doing CC or etc.

Allow me to tell you a fantastic phrase "Given the opportunity players will optimize the fun out of a video game" This is why grinding exist in video games, this is why BnB exists in fighting games and so on, so you just want the ilusion of choice, so you can pretent you can pick up what you want, but in reality you will pick what is better for the goal and as i said before the goal in this game is dealing dmg. Finally, having classes that complement each other is a stupid idea becuase it fosters certain composition over others (and not even the meta world) that is a stupid notion when you have things like NIN being overwermely positive to any party composition, the same as DRG on the support side or are you forgetting what a BRD and DRG comp used to be in HW, amongst others? The only two jobs that are niche composition are RDM and MNK, and MNK even more so than RDM by a kilometer and a half, in fact allow me to tell you this the only class that has never had any synergy with any class (blunt debuff) is MNK. Overall bad idea because it doesnt seem that they are changing the goal of the fights, ohh and just an FYI there were other goals parallel to dmg in the previous raids and people did not like them, ADS on the first turn of bahamut, anyone?